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Sally Hines has tweeted to say, ‘Interrupting my holiday silence to say that Helen Joyce is an absolute disgrace. Anyone who does not condemn her recent tirade is complicit in eugenicism.’

Helen Joyce says SH needs to delete, retract and apologise or she will take legal action, no discussion.

Is Sally going to court?

I know I’ll help out with the crowdfunder just to see her try to explain how trying to resolve dysphoria is eugenics.

And 20% of them will turn out trans. What do we do with those people?

Again, that slippery word "trans". But here from context, I deduce you to be using "trans" to mean "their gender dysphoria persists beyond adolescence".

In which case we go on to treat it, as we always used to, primarily via therapy, like any dysmorphia about a healthy body. When there's nothing physically wrong, the cost-benefit analysis of any physical treatment strongly pushes against physical intervention.

Maybe, as an adult they could choose to undergo some sort of surgical or hormonal "transition". But the jury is out on whether the NHS should be providing that - the evidence base does not seem solid on whether it actually is of benefit as a medical treatment for gender dysphoria. We don't do the same for other dysmorphia conditions - people who don't want their arms or legs.

But as a cosmetic procedure, there is a limit on how much society can stop adults doing things to themselves. I can imagine tighter regulation on those carrying out the procedures, at least, and much tighter regulation on marketing that might be encountered by youth like "yeet the teets".

We just want this stuff to be treated like all other medical and/or cosmetic procedures, looking at costs and benefits, and restricting marketing.

Tell them the world would be better without them?

You can tell them the world is better off without them if that's the way you feel, but I doubt it would help. It's certainly not the way we feel - like everyone, they should be given the best possible care for any condition they may have.

The only people having fantasies about "trans genocide" are those claiming to be their "allies". I'd be beginning wonder if they had my best interests at heart if I had gender dysphoria. Why so many lies?

I don’t understand ‘turn out to be trans’ because I don’t know what it is.

MagnoliaTaint · Today 11:11

The arguments for having treatment so early just don't stack up. Marci Bowers and others have said that puberty blockers meant SRS was made far more difficult.

The video of Nancy Kelly and Susie Green laughing about how small Susie Green's son's penis was before it was inverted in Thailand to create a very small "neo-vagina" is one of the most disgusting things I have seen online.

I would fucking love it if it were safe for every child, every teenager, every 18 year old, to make all the right decisions all of the time and for every single one of their actions to be of benefit to themselves and not to impact adversely on others. Then I could stop worrying about them being drawn into and offered irrevocable medicalisation.

But that's cloud cuckoo land, isn't it?

Hines’s tweet has been up for 18 hours and that reputational damage is done. Hope Joyce takes her to court.

@GCRich are you sure it was Nancy Kelley laughing with Susie Green in that video? There is a video of SG and her mother doing just that - I think maybe that's the one.

I'm in. Lovely day to garden.

Hines is a twerp. I’d love to see her explain her views in court

behind you all the way Helen

This sounds interesting!

If the defense of Helens views are based on the idea that 80% of trans kids desist, then she is in big trouble.

There is not a single study or shred of evidence that say desistance is even close to 5% since the diagnostic criteria last changed.

She would be well advised to step out of the propaganda machine and pay attention to more neutral, and more up to date resources.

In those previous outdated the studies, the things that were learned from the cohort that didnt desist, is how we shaped the current diagnostic criteria.

So the reasons why almost every kid that gets puberty blockers goes on to cross-sex hormones, is because they are the ones that would have persisted, even in the outdated studies.

And also why regardless of how many detransitioners their are, they make a tiny percentage compared to the trans people that thrived due to getting the treatment they needed.

If the defense of Helens views are based on the idea that 80% of trans kids desist, then she is in big trouble.

If you don't give children puberty blockers, 80% or more of them desist. If you give them puberty blockers, almost none do.

In any case, this has nothing to do with the libel action, which is about eugenics. Professor Hines clearly has no idea what eugenics is or how it works. Even if Helen wanted to stop all children identifying as trans, that still wouldn't be eugenics.

I can explain it to you if you want. Or you could look it up - Google is your friend.

if you’re só sure she’s wrong Sunbow then all the more reason for a court case yes? Surely it would be better to have all the arguments heard openly?

Hi, are you the same poster that treated us to 'statistics are stereotypes' on another thread? If not, I apologize, but that poster was hilarious, so hope it's you with a name change to treat us to more gems

This is blatantly wrong.

Not all trans kids need puberty blockers, not all kids referred to explore gender, will come out the other side thinking they are trans.

The kids that make irreversible changes, ie hormones, almost all DO NOT DESIST.

So if the ones that make no irreversible changes, later desisted, what difference would it make??

You want to stop the trans people that dont desist and thrive through treatment, because of something...something... to do with the ones that made NO irreversible treatments?

Please, I beg you.... make it make sense?!

‘The kids that make irreversible changes, ie hormones, almost all DO NOT DESIST.’

But would they have desisted without the blockers?

Not all trans kids need puberty blockers, not all kids referred to explore gender, will come out the other side thinking they are trans

What is a trans kid?

I thought referring kids to explore gender was likened to conversion therapy and not encouraged by believers in the ideology?

How are YOU defining 'trans'?

Exactly. It's well proven that starting puberty blockers is a fast track to cross sex hormones. One of the reasons Sweden and Finland have stopped using them.

SunbowRainshine31

So the reasons why almost every kid that gets puberty blockers goes on to cross-sex hormones, is because they are the ones that would have persisted, even in the outdated studies.

How do you know they would have persisted? As far as I am aware it is impossible to predict the future, hence watchful waiting being preferable to irreversible medical changes.

Yes, because the criteria is shaped from kids who didnt get blockers in past studies, and still didnt desist.

The fact that anyone on here seriously thinks the field of medicine would keep a diagnostic criteria from the 70s that caught up gay and GNC kids, is just actually a mistifying component of Gender-critical propaganda.

All studies that are shared to undermine trans kids are pre-2013, or based on follow-ups from people after 2013, but were diagnosed pre-2013.

Every single one.

There is no evidence the current post-2013 criteria is not robust and successful.

The desistance rates for children on puberty blockers - where are these? The only ones im aware of are from Dutch protocol, created for a different cohort to how it's used, according to one of its pioneers. Tavi had done NO follow up on the children it's treated under the Dutch protocol, as was revealed in Keira Bell's case. There is no hugh quality, reliable clinical evidence for using the PBs in children, according to NICE. www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56601386.amp

‘Yes, because the criteria is shaped from kids who didnt get blockers in past studies, and still didn't desist.’

What is the evidence that those criteria are being correctly applied? Where is the data that should have been held by GIDS? Why, in the Appleby case, was it confirmed that there was no evidence of any child being told that puberty blockers were not the right treatment for them?

Rightsraptor · Today 13:58

@GCRich are you sure it was Nancy Kelley laughing with Susie Green in that video? There is a video of SG and her mother doing just that - I think maybe that's the one.

My apologies - you are 100% correct. Why on earth did I (mis)remember that vid as Nancy Kelly and SG?!?!?!

‘Tavi had done NO follow up on the children it's treated under the Dutch protocol, as was revealed in Keira Bell's case.’

This.

Eh?

Best practice medicine and diagnostic criteria have absolutely nothing to do with the competency of the Tavi, one pathway, in one country, a country that trans healthcare is among the worst... isnt relevant to the global treatment of trans kids, as a facet of natural human diversity.

If the argument that trans kids are invalid, due to the Tavi being rubbish at what theyre supposed to do, that is an exceptionally weak one.