Puzzled by Guardian article

[TheSummerySilveryPussycat]

I hope it is OK to ask what this article means.
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/30/i-am-queer-and-proud-even-though-i-am-now-married-to-a-man

Possibly because of the sneery tone of the article itself. The "I'm queer and I'm so cool, unlike you boring straights”

If you take out that self-descriptive word queer and replace with bisexual or lesbian does that change how the article feels to you?

It seemed to me much more like self-deprecation, a sense of loss, and some observation about homophobia.

She chose not to go to the gay bar because, as part of a couple of one woman and one man, she had the whole of Prague to go out in. Same sex couples would not have had that freedom to be open about their relationship everywhere. That's what she means by not taking up the space.

I thought it was an interesting article. She's missing a culture she spent a lot of time in and commenting in homophobia which still exists.

I spend a lot of time on the Feminist/Gender board here (lurking). Keeping up with the Allison Bailey tribunal was virtually a full time job. BUT, there does seem to be an element of Mumsnet not prepared to listen openly to anyone once they say they are queer, trans, non-conforming etc. Let's not let this thread become a pile-on.

I am now off to Google exactly what queer means though!!!!

Gay clubs are safe spaces for LGB people, where they should in theory be able to escape homophobia for the night. Straight people going sort of ruins that...

Thoight the feminism board would understand safe spaces, although I’m also not sure how this article relates to feminism, I’ll have a reread later

Are straight people homophobic then?

Have gay bars changed since my youth? Most of the big gay bars in my local home city were welcoming of everyone except groups of straight lads. Women and couples were always welcome, I think in recognition of the fact that sometimes women just want to go out and dance and not get hit upon, so the gay bars were safe spaces for all. (Some of the men-only gay bars were not welcoming of non gays of either sex but who would want to visit a bar with men having loud noisy sex behind a curtain?)

Its very sad if the dynamics around gay bars has changed.

Queer seems to be either an erasure if lesbians and bisexuals, or a word for straight people who want to appear ‘different’. I won’t say ‘appear more interesting’ because who a person is attracted to sexually is of zero interest to anyone else.

I don't know if anyone read Dykes to watch out for, but this was basically Sparrow's storyline, and Mo has an issue with her still saying she's queer - and the joke is how when she gets together with Stuart he's more of a lesbian stereotype than she is.

Certainly too many of them are.

Homophobia exists, surely that’s not a shock to you?

You said that gay clubs are where gay people can escape homophobia for the night and straight people going there ruins that

Which implies that all straight people are homophobic and certainly ones going to gay clubs are homophobic

Can you imagine what it would sound like to lump all gay people together and assign a prejudice to them?

You sound very divisive.

Yes that confused me too. I go away with female friends occasionally and share a room. The staff have never shown any confusion about where to seat us for breakfast! DH also shares a room with his golfing pal when they have a golf weekend and has never encountered any "OMG where do we seat these people for breakfast?" issues.

Well "queer' is such a weasel word. It doesn't seem to mean anything beyond "I'm cool, not like you".

She says she is queer and proud then says that space is not for her.

That does not sound very proud

I thought the whole point of bisexuality was that relationships could be with either sex. I think the point about how differently same sex or opposite sex relationships could be viewed by others was a bit interesting, but no different from a gay relationship? (I am not saying that any prejudice is a good thing, but not very clear why bisexuality is very special?)

I mean there are many reasons why gay clubs exist, this is just one of them.

Not all straight people are homophobic, just like not all men are sexist or all white people are racist. But enough of them are.

When I was in a same sex relationship I always found nights out the worst for harassment, unfortunately there were no gay clubs near me but if there had been I think I would have felt a lot more comfortable in one.

Not saying straight people aren’t allowed in gay clubs, that’s not the case in every gay club, but I do think it is respectful not to go if you’re straight as i can understand why it might make some uncomfortable

@bellac11 You need to consider that saying "not all straight people are homophobes" IS EXACTLY THE SAME as saying "not all men" and "all lives matter".

And then reflect that those are basically neo-Nazi slogans at this point.

@crumpet On the off-chance that your question is sincere and not sneery, I'll answer. For those who have exclusively heterosexual relationships, the whole of mainstream society and history provides a welcoming culture and community. For those who have exclusively same-sex relationships, there's an (on the whole) welcoming and supportive LBTQ+/Gay/Queer culture where they can find community. For bisexual people, as they move through life, there tends to be less unequivocal welcoming; they can encounter slight suspicion in both communities as not completely belonging. The author is reflecting on her experience in both places in the article. I think the sneery tone is projected and/or from straight people who think "she's just a bisexual, not a proper lesbian, so I can undermine her account of her lived experience without being called homophobic" - maybe?

Agree. Someone who spent far to long worrying about what other people thought about her when she was edgy and lesbian and not straight , now spends far too long thinking about what other people think about her now she is not edgy and not lesbian. Maybe she needs to add a letter into the alphabet soup . N for not.

I get that point of 'not al...' and gay people wanting safe spaces.
Is this a new thing though?
As I said my experience is from the late 80s early 90s clubbing. The clubs always had loads of straight people (mostly women) and gay and straight people just mixed together in there (like the bars in Its a Sin). There was a lot more homophobia in society but not inside gay clubs/pubs. I'm of course seeing this though the eyes of a straight woman so won't have the insights gay people would.

With this in mind and gay clubs being where I when, if I went to a new city and wanted a night out, this is where I'd head. I just didn't ever even go to all straight places. I remember my husband and I would disagree about certain clubs in the 90s, he would say they were gay and I would say they weren't (same club). But I knew the 'proper' gay clubs of the 80s that were 85% gay not the 50/50 clubs of the 90s. Pubs always seem a bit more segregated, like the 80s clubs.
I've always been gender critical and believe biological sex exists (it does) but this thread has actually given me a little bit of insight (maybe) into how some transwomen may feel being excluded from female spaces. If you see it as the place you belong, these are my people (while obviously knowing I'm not gay) it could be a little bewildering to know that infact you might not have been welcomed by all and it might not have been ok being there.

Some gay clubs are happy for straight people to join, especially if they’re with gay people. Some are not.

I don’t quite understand why a straight person would think a gay club was for them and a space they automatically belong in. I mean the clue is in the name surely.

This is such a horrible sneery thread. I'm as straight as they come but even I can recognise that bi/homophobia exists and understand that people have different experiences.

And the poster who called her dim for going out in Prague - she lives there.

It sounds to me like she thinks of her hetero relationship as dull and boring like an unenthusiastic David Greyesque pub singer and that she is sad she wasn't in the fun gay bar.

What she should know is:
A - the vast majority of people don't care if they see two women together.
B - the gay bar is a public space where she was welcome.

It’s performative ‘othering’ behaviour, making a point of not going into a gay bar when she and her husband may have been very welcome. I don’t know if the gay scene has changed in the past thirty or so years, so she may be corrrect that heterosexual couples and women are no longer welcome?

I think she sounded overly self-involved.

Bi woman in a heterosexual marriage? There are millions of us. It’s not special and interesting.

She comes across as thinking she was all cool and edgy when in relationships with women and now is boring and wants to signal “No, I’m special really, honest I am, look at my flag!”

Then again, I don’t think people’s sexualities are of interest to anyone but themselves and prospective partners.

The experience of being bi and ending up in a long term straight relationship is certainly interesting, not so well known and worth exploring, but I don't think this article did it particularly well.

I always thought there was a distinction between gay bars (gay only) and gay friendly bars (all welcome on condition of respectful behaviour). This was a while ago though; I like old school boozers with pubcats these days.

mobile.twitter.com/bindelj/status/1531261397308428288

I am a fan of Julie but this seems unfair

I think the confusion for me was using the term 'woman' without any clarification as, when coupled with a rainbow flag, this word does not always mean woman does it. They could have been a same sex couple. It just wasn't clear but now I get it.

That was me who called her dim.

If she lives there I'm surprised she managed to find herself in what appears to be Prague's most dismal bar. So yes, very dim. What was she doing there in the first place? I'm not "queer" but I'm damn sure I wouldn't find myself having such a dire night out in any city.