NY Times "What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports"

[miri1985]

www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html

archive.ph/pGVDO#selection-270.0-270.1

Its not a bad article and I like the quote below from Martina Navratilova but it feels very out of date considering all the furore about Lia Thomas competing was back in March. It doesn't feel very current which I could understand if there had been a lot of on the ground journalism involved in the article but TBH, I feel like I read plenty of similar articles months ago. Thought it was worth posting for the Martina quote and maybe the significance of the NYT delving in and also calling out the acronym TERF for being used derisively

"Some trans activists try to silence critics, whom they derisively call TERFs, which stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminists. A spokeswoman for a gay rights group urged a reporter not to “platform” — that is not to quote — those she said held objectionable views, including Martina Navratilova, the retired tennis legend, a champion of liberal and lesbian causes. Ms. Navratilova argues that transgender female athletes possess insurmountable biological advantages.
“So I’m a ‘TERF’ — OK, that’s the way you want to go?” Ms. Navratilova said in response. “I played against taller women, I played against stronger women, and I beat them all. But if I faced the male equivalent of Lia in tennis, that’s biology. I would have had no shot. And I would have been livid.”"

I think this is loads better than what they published only six months ago when everything was utterly one-sided for the trans women. This has quotes from Ross Tucker and others who are critical of developments. So I'm happy to see them take a step away from the abyss but aware that they can easily still jump into it.

"Mr. Henig and Ms. Thomas swam in the race in which they had the greatest advantage. Every decision, a scientist noted, comes adorned with moral thorns."

Interesting that they mentioned that transmen don't feel the need to compete in their gender identity category in order to be validated .

it feels very out of date

I think you might slightly get that vibe just because it's normal old-fashioned reporting about this subject. It's not very 2020s.

I look forward to the time when the ridiculousness we've become accustomed to feels dated, and you'll just look at something and say "oh, yeah, there was a lot of that in the late 10s/early 20s. Pretty gross".

hardly surprising that Mr Henig wanted to race with women - everyone outside the tiny handful of very best male swimmers seems to share this preference - but what to me was surprising is that he was prepared to delay hormone therapy until after finishing swimming - it's almost as if, set alongside the prestige of a sports career [even an amateur one], the need to transition can become just a tiny bit less pressing...

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10382603/Male-transgender-swimmer-Iszac-Henig-came-teammates-year-did-NOT-testosterone.html

Encouraging to see the NYT publish anything not entirely onboard with their usual unquestioning "gender affirmation" take on trans issues. Perhaps the tide really IS starting to turn?

it's almost as if, set alongside the prestige of a sports career [even an amateur one], the need to transition can become just a tiny bit less pressing...

Didn't Emily Bridges only discover the urgency of a need to transition when it looked like EB wouldn't make the Olympic cycling squad?

I’m beginning to question the idea of sex segregation in sport,” she said. “We need to learn to sit with discomfort.”
wtf is wrong with some women. Would she write women should just accept abusive relationships? That they aren’t paid as much? So why is this ok?
absolutely brilliant article especially given where it was published.

I get what PPs are saying about Henig, but isn't the fact they raced alongside women, and everyone just got on with it, truly "inclusive", compared to all this pressure to force males into women's sport, which is not remotely inclusive?

I’m not sure Mr Henig made any decision about which category to compete in. He wouldn’t have qualified to compete at all in the men’s category, so if any choice was made, it was compete in the women’s race or don’t compete at all.

Obviously Henig's sense of gendered self wasn't impacted by competing with women, so why couldn't Lia continue to swim with the men?

Obviously Henig's sense of gendered self wasn't impacted by competing with women, so why couldn't Lia continue to swim with the men?

Gender, innit?

Being a woman, Lia is a delicate flower. It's not reasonable to expect a woman to compete with with the (frankly rather uncouth) men, even if having no physical disadvantage. (And besides, in a proper man's competition, you don't want any annoying women around.)

Henig, being a man, can cope with all manner of hardships - even the embarrassment of swimming with women. (And women should feel privileged at any man wanting to participate in their activities.)

Queer theory, would be my answer to what is wrong with young female academics self-identifying as feminists but not caring a whit about women. Queer theory advocates protesting those odd impersonal power structures by destabilising concepts around which groups are formed.

The concept of 'inclusion' is particularly aimed at this. Why 'women' are to be destabilised in its meaning while 'men' are left alone should, of course, make them wonder, but for some reason does not.

The charitable interpretation is that many young and privileged women in the West don't see women treated any worse on the basis of their sex except in sexual harassment and sexual violence, and they accept that trans women might face similar harassment. They also accept the false argument that violence against transgender people is greater than the violence against women. They believe they are expanding fairness here because they are blind to what is happening to women's rights how.

The less charitable interpretations are many, but the most obvious one is the famous quote Sinclair Lewis quote: 'It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.' When queer theory has taken over humanities, the jobs require queer theory to be used.

It doesn't feel very current which I could understand if there had been a lot of on the ground journalism involved in the article but TBH, I feel like I read plenty of similar articles months ago

I think there's a practical and (I believe) hopeful reason for this seeming delay. There's a new chief editor who has the vibes of an old school reporter.

www.nytimes.com/2022/04/19/business/media/joe-kahn-dean-baquet-new-york-times.html

Swimming World has a guest editorial by five-time Olympic coach Dennis Pursley calling for an end to transgender participation in women's sports: www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/five-time-olympic-coach-dennis-pursley-calls-for-end-of-transgender-participation/

That's a great article Biology, thanks for sharing.

You're welcome Valerie - Dennis Pursley makes some great points and has been fighting for fairness in sport on a number of different fronts for years, so hopefully his intervention will be taken seriously.

Frankly I'm astonished the NYT published this, give how pro trans ideology they've proved themselves to be.

Calling for the end of male participation in women's sports.

An unmedicated transman, as in the example above, can compete fairly, as they have a female body.

Yes, point taken - thanks Dodo.

The NYT published Ross Douthart's piece (available from other sites):

This uniquely American climate also raises uncomfortable questions for the few conservatives, like myself, who enjoy a substantial liberal readership. You will notice that I have written this essay in a studiously cautious style, on the theory that as I am in fact a known social conservative, my too-vigorous prosecution of the skeptics’ case would serve only to reinforce the current progressive orthodoxy — enabling the response that, see, to doubt the wisdom of puberty blockers or the authenticity of teenage self-identification is the province of Catholics, religious conservatives, the out-group.

But of course this is also a theory of conflict- avoidance, shading into cowardice. So to end more straightforwardly, I will make a prediction: Within not too short a span of time, not only conservatives but most liberals will recognize that we have been running an experiment on trans-identifying youth without good or certain evidence, inspired by ideological motives rather than scientific rigor, in a way that future generations will regard as a grave medical-political scandal.

Which means that if you are a liberal who believes as much already, but you don’t feel comfortable saying it, your silence will eventually become your regret.

www.nytimes.com/2022/04/13/opinion/transgender-culture-war.html

I agree. I cancelled my NYT subscription over how they handled the JKR shitstorm a few years ago, publishing unsubstantiated claims of her being transphobic.

A new interview with LT landed today. Brief highlights:

(1) Happily admits [tacitly] that her relative performance in the female category greatly exceeded her historic performance in the male category;
(2) But puts this improvement all down to 'being happier'/'being her true self' as a W;
(3) Stresses that improving her chances of winning at swimming was not a reason for her decision to transition [the last I checked, almost nobody sensible ever suggested this to be the case]; and
(4) Hints that she [quelle surprise] fancies her chances in the Olympics.

www.101espn.com/news/transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-speaks-out-about-backlash-future-plans-to-compete/

Thanks for reading that guff so we don't have to, puffy!

t.co/UFQOgMNBLj

on Good Morning America earlier today