NY Times "What Lia Thomas Could Mean for Women’s Elite Sports"

[miri1985]

www.nytimes.com/2022/05/29/us/lia-thomas-women-sports.html

archive.ph/pGVDO#selection-270.0-270.1

Its not a bad article and I like the quote below from Martina Navratilova but it feels very out of date considering all the furore about Lia Thomas competing was back in March. It doesn't feel very current which I could understand if there had been a lot of on the ground journalism involved in the article but TBH, I feel like I read plenty of similar articles months ago. Thought it was worth posting for the Martina quote and maybe the significance of the NYT delving in and also calling out the acronym TERF for being used derisively

"Some trans activists try to silence critics, whom they derisively call TERFs, which stands for trans-exclusionary radical feminists. A spokeswoman for a gay rights group urged a reporter not to “platform” — that is not to quote — those she said held objectionable views, including Martina Navratilova, the retired tennis legend, a champion of liberal and lesbian causes. Ms. Navratilova argues that transgender female athletes possess insurmountable biological advantages.
“So I’m a ‘TERF’ — OK, that’s the way you want to go?” Ms. Navratilova said in response. “I played against taller women, I played against stronger women, and I beat them all. But if I faced the male equivalent of Lia in tennis, that’s biology. I would have had no shot. And I would have been livid.”"

It is the televised version of the interview.

Basically, if you consider TWAW according to Thomas, then you cannot support it part way. Only purity matters (my interpretation).

And yes, Olympics is something Thomas is aiming for.

Can you imagine the outrage if we suggested that trans athletes need to ‘sit with discomfort’ and compete in the category that matches their biological sex?

Quite an ineloquent speaker in my opinion. The overton window is really being pushed open with an interview like that appearing on GMA. You can see the body language of the reporter how uncomfortable she is with this

With the midterm elections coming up in the US, a lot of politicans are going to get asked if women have penises

I don't think Thomas has realised what a hard line sport is for most people and if you say that if you think TWAW then you can't impose any boundaries on sports, you will lose a lot of people, seems like an own goal.

From that Good Morning America piece:

She continued, "Trans women are not a threat to women's sports."

And the very next sentence says:

While the science on transgender athletes is new and evolving, some medical experts say the effect of higher testosterone during male puberty may never be fully erased.

I think we know which of those statements is correct...!

I agree that Thomas seems to be living in a nice bubble and is able to ignore that the majority of people are not going to support them. I can only guess they are heartened that the organisation that the US Olympic swimming team falls under has not updated their trans guidance to exclude Thomas or believes that they will not gain a place.

However, now that Thomas is so very happy (from the interview), who knows what their improvement will be. Maybe it will cause the swimming world to sit up and take even more notice. Or maybe they will just continue to ignore it for now.

You may have the Figrolls but I don't have the necessary eye-rolls for that scenario.

I'm very new to the topic.

I do understand what is at stake here for women.

I can't help but think that there's no good alternative atm.
This young person is clearly very passionate about their sport. I'm sure she has extra pressure/ stress/ hostility to deal with. She had testosterone reduction therapy i.e. she'd be disadvantaged to compete with men.

And can you just imagine going through everything she's been with her transitioning to be then forced to swim with the men.

So fucking what? They choose that course of action, they remain men with the advantage of male puberty. If needs be, st up a trans category for these people to compete in.

She had testosterone reduction therapy i.e. she'd be disadvantaged to compete with men.

Millions upon millions of men have a medical condition that means they're at a disadvantage to other men.

And every man is disadvantaged to compete with men, as compared to women.

But not as disadvantaged as women are to compete with men.

Women are at such a disadvantage that super-talented women are still behind impaired men like Lia. And if millions of men like Lia can opt into women's sport by voluntarily choosing to impair themselves, then the chance of success for an actual woman is largely determined by "did an impaired man choose to enter my race?"

Sport is supposed to be about finding the best individual in a class, not checking "did any mediocre individual from a higher class up turn up today to join in and spoil it?"

Children don't have to put up with adults entering their events - paralympians don't have to put up with able-bodied people entering their events - flyweights don't have to put up with heavyweights entering their events - why do you think female people should have to put up with males entering their events?

The only logical conclusion I've been able to draw from any of this is that far too many people see women as support humans, rather than individuals in their own right, or this would never have even got past "don't be stupid". It should have taken 10 seconds, not 10 years to sort this out.

I do understand what is at stake here for women.

Sorry to disagree, but you seem to not understand with any depth what is at stake here for girls and women.

I can't help but think that there's no good alternative atm.

The alternative is that these athletes compete with the sex they are and remain.

This young person is clearly very passionate about their sport.

And what about the female athletes who are just as passionate about their sport? They deserve to be rewarded for their efforts too.

They don’t deserve to be dropped from teams, or places because a male has chosen to continue their sport after taking performance limiting medication.

What other athlete who has to make the decision to take performance limiting medication gets to cross categories to compete in a category where they hold advantage?

I'm sure she has extra pressure/ stress/ hostility to deal with.

And the female sports people who cannot complain about their opportunities being lost don’t have extra pressure/stress/hostility?

This is a grown arsed male who has made this choice. Why are you infantilising their decision?

She had testosterone reduction therapy i.e. she'd be disadvantaged to compete with men.

Many people have to choose between competing in sport or taking medication. If a female is no longer competitive because they had to take drugs for their health condition, should she then get to compete with the under 12s?

Besides which, the OIC have now even removed that onus. Sporting federations can choose to remove the testosterone clause too.

How wonderful!

And can you just imagine going through everything she's been with her transitioning to be then forced to swim with the men.

yeah… what a downer! To go through taking hormones, growing breasts and STILL having to compete as a male … with males? It is inconceivable!

Could you imagine? Missing out on so much as a child and teenager to swim competitively, to maybe get your opportunity to get into university on a sports scholarship, to get to represent your state/nation, and a male who has already received better training opportunities (let’s stop lying and denying that sexist discrimination doesn’t impact our children already from birth including sports coaching or just the opportunity to play, because that would be very dishonest) beats you ….

Oh! But don’t worry, you lost fairly and squarely … oh wait….

I do understand what is at stake here for women.

No. If you did, you would have read the studies that are free to read and seen the evidence that does not support a thing you say.

By the way, even the IOC have admitted there is no fairness to their decision… just ‘kindness’ that only goes to the males.

She had testosterone reduction therapy i.e. she'd be disadvantaged to compete with men.

If a 23 year old athlete has to take performance limiting medication that was typical for 80 year old athletes, do they get to compete with the over 80 year old athletes?

Seriously, you are arguing for cross category entry for athletes where no athlete has been permitted to enter before. Why are these males able to do this when no one else is?

Why can’t a 25 year old compete in the Masters in the other 75 year old category?

Why can’t that 25 year old compete in the under 12 year old category?

Why can’t a fully sighted person compete in a category for the visually impaired?

Why can’t a heavy weight compete in a lighter weight?

Why can’t a black belt compete with a beginner?

Why can’t a professional compete as an amateur?

Why do girls and women have to accept males into the female category?

I can't help but think that there's no good alternative atm.

There are plenty. As Thomas believes Thomas is a woman, Thomas is going to have to get used to not getting their own way, and will be expected to "sit with discomfort" on a regular basis.

Oh what you mean it's different for these people? See my surprised face.

The only logical conclusion I've been able to draw from any of this is that far too many people see women as support humans, rather than individuals in their own right, or this would never have even got past "don't be stupid". It should have taken 10 seconds, not 10 years to sort this out.

YY.

Here is an indication of just how many people on twitter agree that transitioned males should compete as females.

twitter.com/sharrond62/status/1530492162764427264?s=21&t=qzNPMcGQlhRsgOXFN511sw

Sharron Davies ran a twitter poll on 28/5/2022

Should biological males be allowed to compete against biological females in sport?

59,473 votes

97% against only 3% for.

Approximately 1785 people voted yes.

It is a twitter poll, but it is an account and a subject that many activists would have been following and would have organised a swing in the result, yet less than 1800 voted yes.

It could be concluded that even the activists realise that they have lost the public sympathy on this issue and they simply did not try. It could be concluded that even amongst the activist community there are boundaries to their support and sports have crossed that boundary.

I mean, this result mimics all the others. There is very little support for this.

😯

Good articles, especially the Pursley one.

Most female athletes have to delay starting a family to optimise their chances of eg competing at an Olympics and extending their competitive years. Other athletes have to set aside competition to deal with medical conditions like eg cancer, returning if/when they are able to.

Trans athletes could delay their medical transition to similarly extend their sporting careers. If their dysphoria is so debilitating that they need to take hormones immediately, then managing their condition has to take priority over competing, like any athlete with a serious medical condition.

Of course, we all know that Lia had no hope of competing at this level as a man because of their wholly mediocre performance and ranking. In which case, it should have been no problem to drop out of competitive swimming to focus on their transition. Right?

No, thank you.

Women, that is biological females, matter. They are not support humans put on this earth to play second fiddle to mediocre biological males.

Yeah, well, I don't consider that TWAW in any sense whatsoever!

I don't see why any of this should be women's problem?

Helleofabore · Yesterday 17:30

It is the televised version of the interview.

Basically, if you consider TWAW according to Thomas, then you cannot support it part way. Only purity matters (my interpretation).

And yes, Olympics is something Thomas is aiming for.

There is a lot of sense in this. All or nothing. Either men who claim a tans woman identity are literally women in every single way, not least how easy it is to find a straight man who would be delighted to have sex with them... or changing sex is impossible and trans women are and always will be men. Now, how do I work out which of these positions is closest to reality? Can anyone help?

@puddingandsun

I'm sure you are earnest in your post. However you do need to read a tad more. Lia Thomas has her dangly bits, and the benefit of over 20 years of testosterone giving her more power, height and strength even after taking female hormones - which lower her below her male counterparts but are still above female levels.

I think the NYT article is mistitled. It's not just the impact of transwomen on elite female sport. It's the impact on all female sport. Very few female children will not swim/play hockey/run/whatever in their early years. But they will be less likely to put in the hours to make it to sports scholarships, state sports teams, national competitions if transwomen can just scoop them up.

@crosstalk yeah, I definitely do!
I'm very new to the topic although I did read the article posted.

I commented what I did based on my instinct alone.

Thanks everyone for being nice. All points taken.