MOS Another problematic trans prisoner in a female prison

[Needmoresleep]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10864613/Transgender-murderer-caught-having-drunken-sex-female-inmate.html

That would never happen. Would Stella Creasy consider them a lesbian?

Interesting that they are able to be moved to a transgender wing in a nearby prison.

Two people in prison had (I assume, it isn't stated otherwise) consensual sex.

Oh come on. If you can’t imagine the multiple power imbalances that may be at play here, there’s no help for you.

In this "dynamic, forward-thinking" prison with a "complex and diverse" population, a male murderer is drunk on illegal home brew and then "has sex with" a "younger" female inmate. Nothing in that means the prison calls the police. Got it.

‘Two people in prison had (I assume, it isn't stated otherwise) consensual sex.’

Not exactly Casablanca, is it?

Women deserve, if they must be incarcerated, single sex spaces. Not spaces in which any person with a penis can be accommodated on their own say so, after a ‘risk assessment’. Males represent a risk to women when confined with them. End of story.

How was he able to make home brew alcohol?

There's one US state, if not more, where all sexual contact between prisoners is illegal, and it should be so here. No way should vulnerable women be bartering sexual favours for safety, protection whatever.

Keep prisons single sex.

A trans prisoner would have gone through risk assessments to go to a female prison and be aware they had to have good behaviour.

Not shagging and making hooch. Both of which would have consequences in a male prison, and rightly has put his jolly in the female estate to an end.

Home brew - hoarding fruit, pulping it and sticking it in a bottle with bread to ferment. All things easy to obtain although searches take place - excess fruit is monitored for.

In another pre GRA era we might have seen a different story. Young vulnerable (and add in your vulnerabilities here as there will be some by the nature of being imprisoned in a facility for "complex" prisoners) woman found having sex with a drunken older man.

The response, for many at least, would have been around what was that man doing there.

As well as risk assessing the trans prisoner should they not have risk assessed each and every women. Pound to a penny at least some of them will have low self esteem and be very vulnerable to coercion or bullying from men or people they, on a physical or emotional level, perceive as men.

But the women, especially very vulnerable women, are not centred. Even though society has chosen to put them in this prison and is setting the environment in which they live.

Good though to know that there are transgender wings elsewhere.

It doesn't say when this happened, does it?

This is exactly why male-bodied prisoners do not belong in female establishments. They never belong there, even if they've had surgery. Shame on whichever governor at Bronzefield approved this. God, I bet the atmosphere in there, with an intact male strutting around and winding everyone up, was hellish.

Foilball there is no consensual sex in prison. Sex between prisoners is a prison offence, because there is always a power imbalance. This man shouldn't even be on the TW wing at Downview, he should be in a normal sex offender unit.

Oh what a surprise the prison is trying to hush it up ffs

There is one transgender wing for prisoners with a GRC, in HMP Downview. My understanding is that they are not completely isolated from the women at Downview but share in things like work and education.

The fact the prisoner was moved to Downview and not straight back to the male estate strongly implies they have a GRC.

They would not go to a sex offender unit as not convicted of sex offences - and as above, it strongly looks like they have a GRC.

Which basically leaves the trans unit in Downview.

Just having a quick google. Apparently in uk law , if I have understood it properly, sex between prisoners is allowed. Something to do with prisoner needs. A report that male prisoners are allowed condoms! Apparently the prison guards find it hard to distinguish between consenting and coerced sex , so leave them to it.

Yet in the USA, sex between prisoners is deemed rape, due to the fact prisoners are a ward of state so can no longer give consent.

Happy to be corrected as not as informed as other people.

I believe that the States had a very big problem with rape in the male estate. And that - some time ago - this led to the bipartisan Prison Rape Elimination Act. I think it was to do with gangs and rape being used as a weapon as part of escalating / continuing gang warfare - or at least that was a big part of it. Rates of STDs and AIDS were part of it too.

I'm not sure we had those issues on the same scale as they did in our male estate but would stand to be corrected.

Or could it be about security levels. The trans woman has been convicted of murder. The prison service might have wanted them housed in the sort of place that housed Rose West and other more complex offenders. Downview seems to be for women including young offenders.

You may be right that there is a GRC or something preventing the prison service from moving them to a man’s prison. Rather than self ID is the default.

But he has committed a sexual offence. The individuals in the Downview unit are often more vulnerable than most - is it really a responsible act to put this person in with them?

Noone, GRC or not, should be in a prison that does not match their biological sex.

It is inevitable that either consensual sex or (more likely) rape will occur, when you house males alongside vulnerable female prisoners. Its so wrong.

Whatever the legislation on what is consensual or not the big difference between same sex and heterosexual sex is the risk of pregnancy. Where are the needs of a child conceived in this scenario ever considered?

Why doesn’t he want to be housed with the men in the men’s prison? Because he acknowledges that men are a risk. He is still a man, he himself is a risk to women. Why should he be accommodated with women he poses a risk to?

What about the risk of pregnancy for the woman he had sex with?

I presume a female prisoner conceiving during her sentence has the same treatment/rights as a pregnant prisoner going into prison.
They get the same healthcare provisions, and get to keep their baby for 18months before baby is removed and given to family or put in care.
The only rule I could find is not allowed to be handcuffed at the front!
Most prisoners who come to our trust are handcuffed on long chains ( low risk)
Most stuff I found was prisoners conceiving by prison guards either consensual or rape. Nothing on trans women in the uk

What you are highlighting is that the prison service is stuck.

Fairplay for Women have some interesting tweets on this today and they have drawn the same conclusion, it strongly suggests the prisoner has a GRC or they would have been chucked back to the male estate so where else in the prison service can they go?

A MTF with a GRC, who has not been safe in a standard women's prison, all they can do is send them to the Trans Unit at Downview. It's all they have.

Sex offences in the prison world are offences you have a conviction for. So no chance of going to a male sex offender unit. And his index offence, murder, is wrong anyway, not appropriate for a sex offender prison.

Unless the woman involved decided this was non-consensual and brought criminal charges, it's not a sex offence.

Self-ID would be a total nightmare for women and the prison service.

Maybe they knew they would be a prison wife 🙄
Maybe they knew they would be tormented for their whole sentence 🙄
Maybe he knew that by saying he was a (new) woman with a beard and dick , they he could still have his needs met in a female prison and as law states he has that every right. And fuck how females feel . As per norm.

So a potential “incentive” for serious offenders to identify as women. Presumably high security prisons, whether men’s or women’s are tougher than Downview. The prison services initial decision might have been based on security, but this did not work, so instead the prisoner gets to go to a presumably lower security, gentler environment.

What if that does not work?

Male prisoners facing a life sentences might see a logic in re-examining their gender identities. They would not have much to lose.

Male prisoners facing a life sentences might see a logic in re-examining their gender identities. They would not have much to lose.

In the short term, sure.

But under self-ID, whatever space can be opted into will, inevitably, over time, house some of the worst offenders.

That's inevitable - the worst offenders will be being held under the most secure conditions, and will opt into "softer" places until those softer places become as "hard" as where they're coming from. Flow only stops when the opt-in destination is similarly high-security with similarly dangerous inmates.

Normal non-opt-in male prisons will end up softer.

Debbie Hayton once quipped, on this basis, about Downview, saying something along the lines of "If imprisoned, I'd rather take my chances in a normal male prison."

No.