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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

MOS Another problematic trans prisoner in a female prison

44 replies

Needmoresleep · 29/05/2022 04:18

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10864613/Transgender-murderer-caught-having-drunken-sex-female-inmate.html

That would never happen. Would Stella Creasy consider them a lesbian?

Interesting that they are able to be moved to a transgender wing in a nearby prison.

OP posts:
Needmoresleep · 29/05/2022 11:17

the worst offenders will be being held under the most secure conditions, and will opt into "softer" places until those softer places become as "hard" as where they're coming from.

But Downview is a women's prison including provision for young offenders. The people housed in the trans unit apparently mix with the normal prison population for work, meals and other activities.

What about the women.

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 29/05/2022 11:40

What about the women.

Bummer? There's apparently no way to separate out actual women from those who want to opt-in, cos it might hurt people's feelings. (The sort of people who have valid feelings and don't "weaponise" them).

Gives Stella Creasy a warm fuzzy "good person" glow though.

WandaWomblesaurus · 29/05/2022 12:43

DogsAndGin · 29/05/2022 10:43

Why doesn’t he want to be housed with the men in the men’s prison? Because he acknowledges that men are a risk. He is still a man, he himself is a risk to women. Why should he be accommodated with women he poses a risk to?

What about the risk of pregnancy for the woman he had sex with?

He doesn't want men to do to him what he wants to do to women. And clearly has been able to get away with doing.

MagnoliaTaint · 29/05/2022 13:47

No, no, it's fine. This is impossible, therefore it can't have happened. They have procedures, you know.

MagnoliaTaint · 29/05/2022 13:55

According to Stella Creasey, we're just 'making stuff up', I believe.

nitter.net/stellacreasy/status/1530608531937828872#m

Abitofalark · 29/05/2022 16:26

How much choice, freely made, does a female prisoner have if confined with a person with penis who is in for murder and approaches her for sex? Does the prison service recognise the fear and intimidatory factor inherent in that set up?

Needmoresleep · 29/05/2022 16:42

Exactly. Being banged up with a horny, convicted murderer, cell mate is most men's nightmare.

Why is it OK for women?

OP posts:
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2022 17:00

drinkingwineoutofamug · 29/05/2022 10:47

I presume a female prisoner conceiving during her sentence has the same treatment/rights as a pregnant prisoner going into prison.
They get the same healthcare provisions, and get to keep their baby for 18months before baby is removed and given to family or put in care.
The only rule I could find is not allowed to be handcuffed at the front!
Most prisoners who come to our trust are handcuffed on long chains ( low risk)
Most stuff I found was prisoners conceiving by prison guards either consensual or rape. Nothing on trans women in the uk

It's sadly not as cut and dried as that.

EXTRACT
Women who give birth in prison or mothers with a child under the age of 18 months can apply to stay in a mother and baby unit (MBU) in 1 of the 6 prisons.The MBUs are in a separate part of the prison and are designed to be a safe place where a mother can look after her child with supervision. The aim is to establish and maintain a bond between mother and child, in line with evidence that a key psychological process of attachment takes place between babies and their primary caregiver in the first six to seven months of life, which influences the later development. MBUs are supported by trained prison staff and nursery nurses throughout the stay to teach mothers new skills for when they are released such as cooking and caring for their babies.Out of twelve prisons in England and Wales there are six with a mother and baby unit.


  • Bronzefield

  • Eastwood Park

  • Styal

  • New Hall

  • Peterborough

  • Askham Grange

With an estimated 17,000 women in the criminal justice system thought to be mothers, places on an MBU are highly sought after. There are limited number of spaces with only a 64 mother and 70 baby spaces which means that many applications are rejected. [Bold mine]Many women admitted to prison have their babies cared for by relatives. Other babies are taken into care by social services where the mother is considered unfit because of violent behaviour, drug use or neglect of previous children.But if a woman can prove by repeated testing that she is drug-free, and is deemed not to be a danger to her baby or other women, she can apply to move from any prison to one of the six MBUs.The process to apply for a place can be long and complex which means that the mother and child/ren can be separated for a long time before a decision is made. Even in the unlikely event that a mother is granted a place, you can only look after your child until they are 18 months old. [bold mine]Lucy Frazer QC MP and Minister for Prisons and Probation addresses this issue in the 2020 Review of operational policy on pregnancy, mother and baby units and maternal separation, stating that she wants to speed up decision-making, suggesting that to introduce it before sentencing will mean that mother and child are not separated for too long.The number of places and facilities are just not enough. Many women are losing their children, some being jailed for petty crimes, which in turn can be devastating, leading to mental health problems, repeat offending and general contempt and mistrust in authority.“It’s hard to get into this unit,” says Emma. “When I first came to Eastwood Park they made clear on the juvenile wing that my behaviour had to be spotless if I wanted to get a place here. That meant not getting into arguments with anyone, which is hard when you are cooped up with a load of other women in such a small space. You can see that from watching Big Brother. People fall out about anything.”According to a number of studies, women are far more likely to self-harm and commit suicide in prison than men. The alarming rise in self-harm and suicide during the COVID pandemic due to prolonged isolation and reduced (sometimes non-existent) visitation proves the devastating effects of women not being able to see their families.COVID-19 outbreak has had a detrimental impact on prisoners. By June 2020, children had not been able to visit their mother in prison and the 13 children residing with their mother in MBUs have not seen anyone outside of the prison.Lack of visitation during the pandemic has now been reported to be a breach of Article 8 of the Human Rights Act which states that a child has the right to family life; and Article 2 of the United Nations Convention on the rights of the Child (1989) which states that a child should be protected by the state from discrimination or punishment for the activities of its parents. It is also argued that this is a breach when children are not being considered during the sentencing of its mother.From Prison Mother and Baby Units in England and Wales

RoyalCorgi · 29/05/2022 17:19

Bronzefield seems like quite a nice, modern prison:

www.hmpbronzefield.co.uk/home/about-the-prison.html

Compared to some of the older, very grim male prisons - where a murderer would usually end up - you can see why it might seem attractive. (Bronzefield appears to take women who have committed both minor and very serious offences.)

Also note that the prison is privately run.

Oh, and the Mail nicked the story from the Mirror:
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/trans-inmate-convicted-murder-caught-27091342

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/05/2022 17:27

I'd also like to bring up that the standard of antenatal care in prisons is atrocious. In general, our prisons cannot give adequate care to the number of women entering the prison estate pregnant.

More specifically, this story in the Mail on Sunday concerns the notorious HMP Bronzefield, where not that long ago, an 18 year old girl who was there on remand, so she had not even been convicted of any crime, was ignored in active labour and left to give birth alone in her cell. She passed out from the pain and when she woke up, her baby was dead.

BBC coverage of the inquiry

No woman should conceive in prison, never mind Bronzefield.

happydappy2 · 29/05/2022 18:21

The more I learn about womens prisons the more I realise they are not fit for purpose. They are NOT trauma informed, or they wouldn't be housing males in them. Women make up roughly 4% of the prison population and are often there due to poor mental health/poverty/co erced into crime by an abusive partner...very often survivors of childhood sexual abuse. It seems they are just an after thought....this situation is appalling.

MagnoliaTaint · 29/05/2022 18:46

Needmoresleep · 29/05/2022 16:42

Exactly. Being banged up with a horny, convicted murderer, cell mate is most men's nightmare.

Why is it OK for women?

I believe some people were suggesting it was some kind of special treat upthread.

MatureMam · 29/05/2022 19:36

@RoyalCorgi It's interesting that The Mirror says it was consensual sex. The inmate was younger, alcohol was involved and this man was a murderer. Have they not heard of coercion?

MatureMam · 29/05/2022 19:50

Men should never be placed in women's prisons, no matter how they identify, even if they have a GRC. The single-sex exceptions in the EqA 2010 allow for this, but identity politics does not. This must change. This is the fight women must win. Again. And it's so depressing and it makes me very angry.

Etinoxaurus · 29/05/2022 22:09

Foilball · 29/05/2022 04:27

Two people in prison had (I assume, it isn't stated otherwise) consensual sex.

No such thing as consensual sex in prison. Like play fighting it’s banned because you can never know what’s happened in the run up or as op have said the power imbalances.

Etinoxaurus · 29/05/2022 22:10

happydappy2 · 29/05/2022 18:21

The more I learn about womens prisons the more I realise they are not fit for purpose. They are NOT trauma informed, or they wouldn't be housing males in them. Women make up roughly 4% of the prison population and are often there due to poor mental health/poverty/co erced into crime by an abusive partner...very often survivors of childhood sexual abuse. It seems they are just an after thought....this situation is appalling.

I worked in the female estate until five years ago. They were TI then 😔

RoobarbandCustud · 30/05/2022 22:36

This reply has been withdrawn

This message has been withdrawn at the poster's request

Etinoxaurus · 31/05/2022 08:37

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Agreed. Hence the no sex rule, there’s no such thing as consensual sex in prison.

TribunalBingo · 31/05/2022 09:07

It's really fucking simple: NO MEN IN WOMEN'S PRISONS, EVER!

If the law doesn't allow for that, change the law. If the law does allow for it, JFDI!

Let's repeal the GRA while we're at it, and tighten up the definitions of words in the EA 2010, to stop anything like this ever happening again.

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