Can anyone help me complain about this?

[sunflowersandtomatoes]

This is my first post on the Feminism board, but I've been reading you all for years, and have so much respect for you, and now I'm hoping you can help me deal with my first example of gender craziness in the wild. I've NCed for this, sorry about that, I just don't want any of this to be traced back to me.

So I'm doing a course - the first step towards training to be a counsellor. I'm not sure if I will do the subsequent levels. It's a course where you have to do a lot of soul searching, and a lot of it is about getting to know yourself, and talking about your own motivations and barriers and stuff. Interesting, although I find it a bit much sometimes.

A small part of last week's big assignment was to think about whether there was anyone we would find it difficult to listen to or help. I thought, and wrote, carefully, and I came up with this:

"I see gender as a social construct and I don’t believe that someone can change sex, so I don’t believe that transwomen are women. I espouse and defend people’s right to identify however they like, and I would always be respectful of chosen names and pronouns. However, I would find it difficult to listen to a transwoman talking about their struggles with their gender identity, and I don’t agree that affirmation is the best way of helping a young person who experiences gender dysphoria. Ultimately, I just don’t think I could be hugely helpful to someone with those kinds of issues, and I wonder whether that will be a problem in the future."

I think it's respectful and honest, but my tutor chose, in her feedback, to focus exclusively on this paragraph, to the exclusion of the other 1900 words I wrote, and sent me this:

"I acknowledge that you have identified a specific area that you would find it difficult to work with – gender identity. It is good and ethical to identify this so that when you work with clients you have the relevant experience and skill set and are giving them what they need. There is some interesting material on different websites around this subject: Gendered Intelligence, Mermaids and Stonewall, to name a few, which may broaden your understanding and research around this. It is worth mentioning here that gender identity is one of the nine protected characteristics in the Equality Act 2010 and as such it is unlawful to discriminate against someone on the grounds of their gender identity just as it would be to discriminate against race, religion or disability to name three others on the list."

I am so angered by this, which is why I'm finding it difficult to respond! I am very well read on the subject (although not as well read as some of you), and I find her suggestion that I should read those bullshit websites (again) to "broaden my understanding" very fucking insulting. It's also not her place to lecture me. If she wants to recommend literature about counselling, I'll be happy to hear it, but anything else (gender issues, the war in Ukraine, what colours suit me best, how to raise my children) just isn't in her remit. And thirdly, what, is she suggesting I might also be a racist, because I've said that men can't be women? It feels like another example of unthinking people talking shit about something they haven't really thought about, and it's SO damaging.

Honestly, I know a lot of you have faced much bigger injustices around this issue, and I salute you. Any advice you can give me about how to respond (complain, if we're honest) would help me to take the heat out of it. Or maybe you think I should just leave it - happy to hear that too.

Thanks for reading.

She’s just gently reminding you of your ethical duty as a (trainee) counsellor that in your future practice you cannot discriminate.

Yes, this

www.transgendertrend.com/product/captured-the-full-story-behind-the-memorandum-of-understanding-on-conversion-therapy/

This might be useful OP.

In this context, helping someone would be to refer them to a different counsellor.

Oh, and you absolutely should 'discriminate' in which clients you feel you wouldn't work with effectively. It would be unethical to accept a client if your feelings about their stuff will get in the way of the work. That's not bigotry, that's in the clients' best interest, surely? If I want to talk about my abortion, a therapist who sincerely believes I'm going to hell for what I've done isn't going to be best placed to help me, are they?

Don't be daft. A counsellor can refuse, refer on, any potential client they want to. Who would ant to insist on speaking to a counsellor who has no experience or no desire to treat you? They need to refer on. But cannot be forced to take on a client they gave a fundamental issue with. Your rights don't get stripped when you get certified!

My Janet, what long arms you have. That was a stretch, even for you!

No, it's Gender Reassignment that is the protected characteristic. Here you go:
www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

It's listed on the opening page, you don't have to go looking for it.

@DontLikeCrumpets I think the key point here is not the extent of transition, but the comparator. My understanding is that under the PC of Gender Reassignment, the comparator is someone of the same birth sex who hasn't transitioned. That's why it's confusing when it's given as "gender identity" or "gender", because those terms suggest that the comparator should be someone of the opposite sex. I mean, under gender ideology, we all have a gender identity, right? So if Stonewall Law was true, both myself and a TW would be categorised together in opposition to men and TW, but in reality no such legal grouping exists. You can't treat a TW worse than a man who isn't trans, but you don't therefore have to treat them as a woman in all respects or swear that you believe that they are one.

Sorry, *men and TM

This is nonsense. As I and others have said, counsellors and therapists don't have any kind of ethical duty to take on anyone who turns up at their door. Most require a first exploratory session where both client and therapist check out whether they think they are a good fit. Either party can decide not to go any further. A good therapist will be honest if they have reason to believe you're not ready for therapy or they're not the right therapist for you. A bad therapist will take your money every week and spend years reflecting stuff back at you as you go round in ever-decreasing circles.

My Janet, what long arms you have. That was a stretch, even for you!
Say what?
Also, why link to someone else's post and then refer to me?
You make no sense.
That wasn't even my post so not entirely sure what you're going on about, sorry.

It would be unethical to accept a client if your feelings about their stuff will get in the way of the work. That's not bigotry, that's in the clients' best interest, surely?

Going by that logic, it's OK for a counsellor to refuse to accept a client because you thought being gay was a choice, it's not natural and they could choose to not be (NOT my views, by the way, just giving an example.)
If you feel that you can't work with them despite that being your feelings and that's all that you're basing not wanting to work with them on, that's not bigotry, that's just in the client's best interest, surely?
Going by your logic that is.

@GoodJanetBadJanet my apologies, on my phone and, because with the update it now judders when it scrolls, I didn't see that I had muxxed up 2 posts.

I wouldn't dream of deliberately maligning you for something you hadn't posted!

However, the sentiment remains. A counsellor and or therapist can, and indeed should, refer on any client for whom they cannot give their best to.

The protected characteristic in the Act is being interpreted by tribunals to include people who identify as non-binary, gender fluid or transitioning. You might want to be careful about getting into a legal technical debate with her on this point.
Definitely the protected characteristic of gender reassignment has in practice come to resemble much of what is meant by "gender identity", so this gotcha doesn't make much tangible difference here.

But democratic rule of law means recognising the legislation which Parliament approved and which we can all see and debate, rather than certain organisations' self-serving interpretations. So I'd probably say something to the tutor to make her aware of her factual error, while also noting that the scope of "gender reassignment" is still being explored by the courts and might - or might not - in time come to be contiguous with Stonewall's definitions of "gender identity".

It's also poor form for the tutor to be misquoting the EA without checking, and it suggests a disappointing intellectual laziness and lack of curiosity. But those characteristics may also make engaging with her fruitless (suddenly I'm thinking of Wagatha Christie and pigeons).

In this case I would respond along the lines of:
Thank you for your helpful feedback, as so do not want to discriminate I have reviewed the EA2010 www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/part/2/chapter/1 and found that Sex, Sexual Orientation and Gender reassignment are 3 of the 9 protected characteristics.

However, I have been unable to find any reference to Gender Identity, which is different to Gender Reassignment, as a protected characteristic. I would really appreciate it if you could send me a link to the relevant section.

No one can take offence asking for a legal reference.

Is this CPCAB L2? I would not be writing to them about anything to do this.

It's also poor form for the tutor to be misquoting the EA without checking, and it suggests a disappointing intellectual laziness and lack of curiosity. But those characteristics may also make engaging with her fruitless (suddenly I'm thinking of Wagatha Christie and pigeons).
@drhf 😂I'm feeling better already! I knew it was a good idea to post.

Can you say any more about what you mean by that?

Pretty sure the person your complaint would go to is a TW.

I am pro children and women's safeguarding so I guess I'd be considered GC.

But no way would be telling a TW that I would find it difficult to listen to a transwoman talking about their struggles with their gender identity. You will be expected to say why that is. Tbh I'm not sure why you'd find that hard.

I find it perfectly possible to listen to someone's struggles with their gender identity whilst simultaneously knowing that human beings can't change sex.

Just like I can empathise with the struggles presented by someone's religious belief whilst also not sharing those religious beliefs myself.

FFS @Pluvia I have already tried to clarify for you on this thread that not discriminating per the Equality Act as a therapist doesn’t mean there is an ethical duty to take on every client, even ones you cannot help. You are being deliberately obtuse to keep thinking of the therapist matching process as discrimination in the legal sense.

So what are you talking about? Give me an example of a situation in which a counsellor refusing to work with a particular individual would be legal discrimination.

• A counsellor with a sexual abuse history who refuses to work with a sex offender.

illegal discrimination

Well that’s easy. If you refuse to treat anyone specifically due to a protected characteristic such as their sex, religion, race, nationality, sexual orientation etc per the Equality Act. As in, saying I don’t counsel black people. Or Muslims. Or trans people “because I’d find it difficult to empathise”. That’s discrimination.

legal care decisions:

Deciding you cannot help a patient with gender identity issues or gender dysphoria because that is not your area of expertise would not be illegal discrimination. Or deciding you cannot help a patient who needs sexual trauma counselling because your own history as a survivor of sexual assault makes it too triggering.

You’re not rejecting patients because of who they are, but because the counselling they need you genuinely cannot provide.

Isn't this a straw man argument?

Are you aware of counsellors and therapists who openly and specifically refuse to work with certain clients because they're gay or Muslim or black or whatever? We're talking about accredited, trained counsellors, not people who just advertise themselves as counsellors. How many counsellors and therapists are removed from their accreditation bodies each year for illegal discrimination?

I've read the latest bacp report I can find and they don't spell out what complaints led to 13 people being removed from their register.
www.bacp.co.uk/media/11019/bacp-ppc-annual-report-2020.pdf

When the OP is fully qualified and practicing, how will you know when she tells a transgender or gay or black client that she doesn't feel that she is the best counsellor for them whether she a) doesn't feel she's the best counsellor for them or b) is illegally discriminating against them?

Isn't this a straw man argument?

No it’s the examples you asked for as to what discrimination under the Equality Act might consist of.

Are you aware of counsellors and therapists who openly and specifically refuse to work with certain clients because they're gay or Muslim or black or whatever?

No, I made no mention of the rate at which counsellors do break the law by illegally discriminating because again, you asked for hypothetical examples as to what would constitute discrimination under the Equality Act.