Sarah Vine in DM - Calvin Klein's surreal advert trivialises trans debate

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www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10816885/SARAH-VINE-Calvin-Kleins-surreal-advert-trivialises-trans-debate.html

I thought we had agreements on stuff like not having excessively-thin models due to encouraging unhealthy behaviour in women? Surely this is exactly the same?

This is one certainly one of those historical media artefacts people will look back on in a few decades and go "WTF"?

As indeed, those of us awake to the current situation already are, and indeed those totally unaware of it.

You have to be inculcated into a very particular group-think to believe that this is acceptable - or pretend that you find it acceptable because you know it's what you're supposed to say.

It seems they think it's fashionable. Just like the fashion industry thought being underweight was. It's also a bit like when companies throw rainbows and glitter all over their branding but only in certain companies - to project an image and hope to make some money at the same time. It's vapid. And it does trivialise the issues.

That advert shows the world has gone mad. Completely mad.

Sarah Vine tells us this ad is aiming at Mother's Day, marked in the US in June I think. Am I the only one who thinks buying your mother underwear for Mother's Day is a bit ... well, weird?

As much as I hate to agree with Sarah Vine on anything, she consistently writes with clarity on this issue and I applaud her for that.

She is simply and straightforwardly asking questions that women urgently need an answer to - knowing full well it will be seen as 'hate' by the hard of thinking.

I assume it's queering the boundaries of Mother's Day, rights. Or expanding the bandwidth or some such.

I was actually thinking of buying another Calvin klein bralette but no, I won't. That image is so warped.

Well I am all for queering the boundaries of gift giving. If any if you lot want to get me a birthday present I'd like some tiger worms for my compost bin please. No girlie chocolates or flowers for me. No Calvin Fucking Klein undies either.

Un fucking believable!

That poor poor child.

The person having the child must have terrible mental health to do that to their body but still want to do this most female thing in the world. Pregnancy.

And their partner? A person with a penis I assume, since they got the other pregnant?

History will look back on this and be shocked.

Next time I see anybody with Calvin Klein underwear peeking out, I will will be judging!!

Unusually buy the kids some for Xmas but that's def not going to happen now!

That poor poor baby :(

What a shit show.

On another note, is the person having the baby still taking hormone treatment whilst pregnant?

I notice the hairy belly etc.

Please, PLEASE, could someone explain why a person who wants to 'be male' does the most obvious thing only a biological woman can do? I'm sorry, not trying to derail, but I genuinely don't understand! Does it not cause more issues if the person thinks their body is 'wrong'? I know I'm going to get some flack, but still.

On another note, is the person having the baby still taking hormone treatment whilst pregnant?

I would hope not. Testosterone has permanent effects on stuff like hair growth - it's not going to go away when you stop taking it.

But these permanent effects includes the reproductive system - it effectively causes an induced menopause, so I would strongly imagine a woman doing this after having been on testosterone is going to have a more risky pregnancy - maybe similar to an older mother, maybe worse.

We're not talking a couple of glasses of wine here, folks. It's serious system disruption.

I'm sorry, not trying to derail, but I genuinely don't understand! Does it not cause more issues if the person thinks their body is 'wrong'?

These people don't think their body is wrong, exactly. That's gender dysphoria, which is what surgical treatment was supposed to be a "cure", or at least a palliative for, if psychological treatment was ineffective.

These gender people are doing it more for more complex psychological reasons. The body modification is partly a ritual induction into a group, partly an assertion of control over the self, a whole bunch of things.

So it's not as inherently contradictory as it might seem.

Here's a take on the "ritual" part of the phenomenon I found interesting the other day, that I think has a lot of truth in it.

Gender Identity Isn't Real

Medical transition is ritual purification.

[...]

If those who are born Black or disabled are the chosen, trans people are the converts who have voluntarily accepted Marginalization. They choose to suffer more from their involuntary embodiment. Because of this, they become virtuous. They are saved.

Girls in particular have often had an urge to self-harm - cutting, bulimia - and this is an organised outlet leveraging that.

Very little connection to the prototypical 20th century dysphoric transsexual (usually male, very rare).

This was my first thought too?

Are they still having testosterone when TTC/pregnancy?

If yes, how does this effect the the virilization of the fetus, particularly female fetus? Who is licencing this? (Given most pregnant women struggle to get hold of appropriate medication for common ailments).

If no, how long after stopping testosterone does the male pattern hair growth last? The individual in that picture is clearly heavily pregnant so if they did stop it was presumably a while ago, therefore is there photoshopping going on? In which case it should be reported to the advertising standards, as it sends out a misleading message to transmen and young women who may go on to develop ROGD with regard to the damage that puberty blockers and cross sex hormones do to their fertility.

Bet you all the money in the world the Arab and Far East Asian arms of their marketing department aren't using this ad. And the website is still as traditionally gendered as ever.

Rainbow washing bollocks.

CK is owned by PVH Corp., 'formerly known as the Phillips-Van Heusen Corporation, is an American clothing company which owns brands such as Tommy Hilfiger, Calvin Klein, Warner's, Olga and True & Co. The company also brands such as Kenneth Cole New York and Michael Kors.'

The ad 100% mainstreams and promotes trans ideology. In their eyes, it's probably fresh and edgy, which is how they like to position the brand.

Interesting crazy times. I wonder how this will all pan out in the next 5-10 years. Interesting, also, to think about the abortion bill and how that fits in the context of 'men' having babies.

This gender woo ideology really subverts the most fundamental aspects of being human, procreation and the fabric of our society. I do often wonder why and to what purpose as there is such a powerful PR machine behind it all.

I am a little bit hopeful that trans ideology is the last hurrah of post modernism as we are entering a new phase in history.

Post modernism, that dreaded term from 1990s uni days:

Claims to objective fact are dismissed as naive realism. Postmodernism is characterized by self-referentiality, epistemological relativism, moral relativism, pluralism, irony, irreverence, and eclecticism; it rejects the "universal validity" of binary oppositions, stable identity, hierarchy, and categorization.

Postmodernists are "skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person". It considers "reality" to be a mental construct. Postmodernism rejects the possibility of unmediated reality or objectively-rational knowledge, asserting that all interpretations are contingent on the perspective from which they are made.

Various authors have criticized postmodernism as promoting obscurantism, as abandoning Enlightenment rationalism and scientific rigor, and as adding nothing to analytical or empirical knowledge.
(Wikipedia)

Gender ideology is the perfect expression of post modernism. Seeing that PM has been around for eons and that real world events are rapidly evolving and escalating, I am somewhat optimistic that PM, and with it gender woo, is peaking just before it's giving way to the next phase in human history.

Anyway, while the West is busy with LGBTQ+++ what are we not doing? What is the opportunity cost of focusing on LGBTQ+ over poverty, global warming, sex-based violence, modern slavery..

Wow.... I'm glad I did a science degree!!

So a straight couple having a baby then? How very edgy and modern Calvin Klein can fuck off.

Because of the shadows round the elbow it wasn't clear to me whose hands were on the belly, then I realised...man hands.

That’s a pregnant woman who presents as a man, with their partner who was born male, who now presents as a woman...

Slight aside but that pic of Lei Thomas - can you imagine anyone female swimming in that cossie? They'd fall out!

And the man in this relationship will be demanding the Mothers Day cards and kudos.

I watched a video of Elaine Miller talking about this a bit and she said something about how the placenta in trans pregnancies was smaller than average and I think she said this might be why babies born to transmen tend to be delivered prematurely (but I may not have recalled that correctly, I'll see if I can find the link).

It was a really interesting talk (which I can't now seem to find in my bookmarks) where she also spoke about how some elderly people who have transitioned 'forget' that, if they develop dementia, which can be very distressing. The same does not happen with their sexuality, which suggests that unlike sexuality, being trans is not innate.

It was a really interesting talk (which I can't now seem to find in my bookmarks) where she also spoke about how some elderly people who have transitioned 'forget' that, if they develop dementia, which can be very distressing. The same does not happen with their sexuality, which suggests that unlike sexuality, being trans is not innate.

People with dementia forgetting their 'current gender' was mentioned in this NHS document:

www.wales.nhs.uk/sitesplus/documents/861/Supporting%20Me%20Transgender%20%20Dementia%20-%20final.pdf

A person may not recall their current gender. They may see
themselves as being pre-transition resulting in heightened
disorientation and anxiety. They may be surprised to see
the physical changes that have occurred.

Found it.

The whole thing is worth watching IMHO, but around 18.00 is where she starts to talk about testosterone effects.