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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Vine in DM - Calvin Klein's surreal advert trivialises trans debate

38 replies

Popuptent · 15/05/2022 06:27

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-10816885/SARAH-VINE-Calvin-Kleins-surreal-advert-trivialises-trans-debate.html

OP posts:
Mandodari · 15/05/2022 13:21

RhannionKPSS · 15/05/2022 11:47

That’s a pregnant woman who presents as a man, with their partner who was born male, who now presents as a woman...

Imagine growing up knowing that your father was your birth mother and your mother was the one who fathered you.

Utterly selfish people.

Bewaldeth · 15/05/2022 13:38

Elaine Miller also mentioned vaginal atrophy in transmen taking testosterone so the effects of the thinning of the vaginal walls and the loss of elasticity may cause birth injuries the medical community don't know how to deal with as there has been no research.

BootsAndRoots · 15/05/2022 14:11

Gillette lost business a few years ago with their teaching a trans man to shave advert.

Men are hardly going to be clamouring for underwear modelled by a pregnant woman with a beard. And women don't want underwear that is modelled by someone with a penis.

Advertising is supposed to be aspirational, not demeaning.

nepeta · 15/05/2022 16:44

loislovesstewie · 15/05/2022 10:11

Please, PLEASE, could someone explain why a person who wants to 'be male' does the most obvious thing only a biological woman can do? I'm sorry, not trying to derail, but I genuinely don't understand! Does it not cause more issues if the person thinks their body is 'wrong'? I know I'm going to get some flack, but still.

To add to the previous answer on page 1, I have come to understand that many trans women and trans men do believe that 'woman' = a bunch of sexist stereotypes about clothes, submissiveness, pink brains, sexiness being central in one's life etc., and that this is what they are transitioning to or from.

Gender dysphoria, when it exists, can be about the body, but it can also be what they call social dysphoria (hating being called by a female name, being called 'she' and so on).

It's not clear-cut, but I believe this is part of the puzzle. And of course means that this is how the rest of us women are viewed.

FatFucker · 15/05/2022 17:22

I'd give money to see the original picture before it was photoshopped to fuck!

viques · 15/05/2022 17:27

Cyw2018 · 15/05/2022 10:22

This was my first thought too?

Are they still having testosterone when TTC/pregnancy?

If yes, how does this effect the the virilization of the fetus, particularly female fetus? Who is licencing this? (Given most pregnant women struggle to get hold of appropriate medication for common ailments).

If no, how long after stopping testosterone does the male pattern hair growth last? The individual in that picture is clearly heavily pregnant so if they did stop it was presumably a while ago, therefore is there photoshopping going on? In which case it should be reported to the advertising standards, as it sends out a misleading message to transmen and young women who may go on to develop ROGD with regard to the damage that puberty blockers and cross sex hormones do to their fertility.

Apparently male pattern hair growth lasts a long time, former transmen who have de transitioned often have to undergo expensive and painful laser treatment to reduce body and facial hair. Something I doubt they put in the brochures at Mermaids.

MagnoliaTaint · 15/05/2022 17:31

NecessaryScene · 15/05/2022 10:13

On another note, is the person having the baby still taking hormone treatment whilst pregnant?

I would hope not. Testosterone has permanent effects on stuff like hair growth - it's not going to go away when you stop taking it.

But these permanent effects includes the reproductive system - it effectively causes an induced menopause, so I would strongly imagine a woman doing this after having been on testosterone is going to have a more risky pregnancy - maybe similar to an older mother, maybe worse.

We're not talking a couple of glasses of wine here, folks. It's serious system disruption.

Elaine Miller discusses the effects of testosterone on young women, premature menopause, etc. She notes that this will undoubtedly have effects on pregnancies.

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MagnoliaTaint · 15/05/2022 17:40

WhoIsIn · 15/05/2022 10:52

CK is owned by PVH Corp., 'formerly known as the Phillips-Van Heusen Corporation, is an American clothing company which owns brands such as Tommy Hilfiger, Calvin Klein, Warner's, Olga and True & Co. The company also brands such as Kenneth Cole New York and Michael Kors.'

The ad 100% mainstreams and promotes trans ideology. In their eyes, it's probably fresh and edgy, which is how they like to position the brand.

Interesting crazy times. I wonder how this will all pan out in the next 5-10 years. Interesting, also, to think about the abortion bill and how that fits in the context of 'men' having babies.

This gender woo ideology really subverts the most fundamental aspects of being human, procreation and the fabric of our society. I do often wonder why and to what purpose as there is such a powerful PR machine behind it all.

I am a little bit hopeful that trans ideology is the last hurrah of post modernism as we are entering a new phase in history.

Post modernism, that dreaded term from 1990s uni days:

Claims to objective fact are dismissed as naive realism. Postmodernism is characterized by self-referentiality, epistemological relativism, moral relativism, pluralism, irony, irreverence, and eclecticism; it rejects the "universal validity" of binary oppositions, stable identity, hierarchy, and categorization.

Postmodernists are "skeptical of explanations which claim to be valid for all groups, cultures, traditions, or races, and instead focuses on the relative truths of each person". It considers "reality" to be a mental construct. Postmodernism rejects the possibility of unmediated reality or objectively-rational knowledge, asserting that all interpretations are contingent on the perspective from which they are made.

Various authors have criticized postmodernism as promoting obscurantism, as abandoning Enlightenment rationalism and scientific rigor, and as adding nothing to analytical or empirical knowledge.
(Wikipedia)

Gender ideology is the perfect expression of post modernism. Seeing that PM has been around for eons and that real world events are rapidly evolving and escalating, I am somewhat optimistic that PM, and with it gender woo, is peaking just before it's giving way to the next phase in human history.

Anyway, while the West is busy with LGBTQ+++ what are we not doing? What is the opportunity cost of focusing on LGBTQ+ over poverty, global warming, sex-based violence, modern slavery..

It's surely not still seen as fresh and edgy, though? Maybe ten years ago, no? If teenagers are seeing it as a daft joke (which many of them are) then I think it's probably already on the way out, tbh.

TheBiologyStupid · 16/05/2022 00:29

'We can reproduce biologically or from the heart… our role in the world is to love and be loved.'

Leaving aside the fact the heart is not yet a reproductive organ (although in this day and age you never know) [...]

Indeed, Ms Vine!

MagnoliaTaint · 16/05/2022 09:42

That line did give me a rather alarming mental image.

IcakethereforeIam · 16/05/2022 10:29

I think if tm get male pattern baldness, that hair doesn't grow back if they detrans. But I might be wrong.

Eyesofdisarray · 16/05/2022 10:33

FO 2 CK

IcakethereforeIam · 16/05/2022 10:43

I think it's a stupid ad. It looks at first blush like a fat bloke being creepily caressed by a Kardashian wannabe, 'Give mi belly a rub, Khonnie, I've got shocking wind!. I think I might shart in mi Calvin's'.

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