Peter Boghossian

[TheCurrywurstPrion]

I found this fascinating video on Twitter. Philosopher Peter Boghossian was carrying out a thought experiment around the statement “There are only two genders” in the street outside the social work department of Portland University.

A group of people come out to challenge him. Watch what happens when it comes to the point that they cannot challenge him further and realise to continue means they will actually have to engage.

Thank you I found that very interesting

I think the thought experiment worked very well.

Urgh my message cut off.

I found the video very interesting Novina although I wondered if his interpretation of "people like you to speak clearly/plainly" was based on his experience as a man, my experience is that speaking plainly often gets people's backs up 😬

Yes, Gibbons, I think there are arguments to be had with Boghossian's stance, but also lots to learn. I like his approach in this area, and my experience of reading his book is that it's packed of interesting techniques and examples of conversations, and the occasional thing where I really disagree or think he's not sufficiently examined his own biases (which are criticisms that could also apply to me as a reader, of course.)

I think, almost as much as the word woman, I'm horrified at this movement abusing and appropriating the word triggered.

It isn't allowed to be used when discussing female rape victims access support groups or services and unexpectedly find men there, oh no, these women simply lack "education." However, we can throw "triggered around" with abandoned in places where it really means "hurt feelings," or indignation.

I think there's a few interesting things going on with these young people. First of all they seem to have a fear of being asked to explain why they believe in something and not even in a confrontational way. They are the generation that grew up with information literally at their fingertips and yet they've not developed any world view nor sought to. They fear it.
Secondly, the belief that men and women are stereotypes and anything outside of that is trans/ non binary/etc. They are the ones peddling the belief of woman likes cooking and sewing and man likes building and cars. They are the ones oppressing. They are the ones being harmful.
Lastly there was the triggering. Would they stand there supporting a woman who has survived a sexual assault/ harassment ( aka most women) feeling triggered by a male body in the changing room? I would bet my bank account they would support the male body who has made this woman afraid because of his hurt feelings. They seem to think no one should ever have their feelings hurt and this has led to this complete lack of self reliance and resilience that leaves them unable to cope with adult life.

‘They seem to think no one should ever have their feelings hurt and this has led to this complete lack of self reliance and resilience that leaves them unable to cope with adult life.’

They think certain people should never have their feelings hurt. Other people with hurt feelings are expendable.

I've found myself contemplating the idea of things being "triggering" a lot recently, because of a friend withdrawing from my life on the basis that seeing me was triggering.
I've come to feel it's not a healthy concept. It puts the responsibility for your own emotional reaction on another person. And makes that a reasonable response- instead of realising the only person in control of our emotions and the wierd and wonderful way our brains work is ourselves.
Of course I totally support people making decisions for their mental wellbeing, to avoid trauma, to have autonomy about who we have in out lives. But it's gone too far.
I've had very strong emotional reactions to things in life, I'm thinking anti-abortion protests for example, but the world can't be ordered around me.

UlcerativePoliteness (I love your name!)
How sad that a generation has given in to gender stereotypes, and clearly have no understanding of how rigid these boxes are that they’re willingly putting themselves, and others, into.

Yes, that's one of the bizarre convolutions of gender ideology. They've actually had to revive and rebuild those outdated sex stereotypes, in order to force people into them and then complain that the stereotypes are restrictive!

I wonder that their heads don't fall off with having to believe so much self-contradictory dogma.

the world can't be ordered around me

ManicsFan, I'm afraid you've failed the first question in the gender-identity exam.

I wondered if his interpretation of "people like you to speak clearly/plainly" was based on his experience as a man, my experience is that speaking plainly often gets people's backs up

I agree and, no irony intended, my experience is that this is very gendered. Women are interpreted as aggressive and confrontational, men are plain-speaking or acting as Socratic thought-leaders (or even so many Virgils to hapless Dantes).

IME, women are expected to soften and to persuade and to find indirect ways of suggesting error correction or appropriate courses of action..

Those young people are so fucking stupid it makes my head hurt. I can't even think of a more reasonable way to express it.

Yes, that's one of the bizarre convolutions of gender ideology. They've actually had to revive and rebuild those outdated sex stereotypes, in order to force people into them and then complain that the stereotypes are restrictive!

Yep, the sheer self-inflictedness of this tries my patience. You're creating your own problems, people.

It's all like this meme I saw this on Ovarit.

There's a simple answer to this, all you "folks". "Woman" = "adult human female". All contradictions solved. You're welcome.

Worrying to think that these are social work students. Presumably support dog, support assistant and support Mum will be there when they meet clients who may not use the approved language / lifestyle

I thought that the non-binary person was almost there. If the difference between sex and gender had been clarified, there was almost the possibility of a light bulb moment. But the conflation of sex and gender makes intelligent discussion impossible.
I wish I had Peter's patience. I get so frustrated I get annoyed. The fact that these people are the graduates of the future really worries me.

So much....so little. Someone had to go home? Because of a sign? Do you have a person trained in trauma? The camp young man, with stereotypical boy just wants to smash things.

I wanted to see the game. But when he'd dealt with the tedium of their navel gazing they just fucked off. Save me from the kindness of these student!

Yes the trauma comment.

“What if you start this game with someone and it triggers their trauma? Are you trained to deal with that?”

It’s so utterly ridiculous. Being protective of imaginary people, not to mention hugely condescending. Why would someone play the game, knowing the title of the topic, if they were the sort to get “triggered” by it? Are people who might play the game not grown up enough to make a decision about how they might feel about the game before deciding to do so that they need a group of superhero social work students to risk assess it for them first?

Do they think poor vulnerable mentally fragile trans people will be ensnared in his trap unless they protect them?

No wonder trans people on campus there are so fragile and vulnerable, they’re surrounded by helicopter parents who won’t let them climb to the top of the slide lest they scrape their knee.

Actually I've played some games of monopoly that were pretty full on. They should have a warning and a helpline no. on the box.

What is scary to me is that this is a university which is supposed to be full of the most intelligent people in the country. They should constantly have their beliefs questioned so they they learn critical thinking. And yet, their whole premise is the absolute opposite - that it's harmful to challenge people's beliefs or make people think about opposing ideas.
However, these are just kids. And I wonder how open most of us are to have our beliefs challenged and how soon, when faced with a skillful speaker, we would start to shout and swear and try to fade away.

It's scary that this is about would be social workers, who will be working with vulnerable older people, children and families. How can they think shutting things down that someone else might theoretically find upsetting is even possible? Do they think they can say magic words and violence, trauma, poverty and Ill health will vanish.

Social work is hard. This shouty bunch seem I'll prepared.

The even scarier thing is that this is it. When we all die thise people are the ones that are going to staff work places and raise the children. If they do not learn how identity is not important nor is it what will hold them back long term. Then there is no more hope.

By the time they face their maternity discrimination, or lose their positions to males who identity as women and there is no female representation, it will be to late to undo all the damage these people are doing by handing over womens rights to men and males.

The next generation will be right back where it all started

And yet they are quite happy to refer to ‘Boomers’ with no care in the world about how offensive that can be when used by people like them 🤷🏻‍♀️.
If they want to see someone truly ‘triggered’ then let them call me ‘cis’ to my face…they’ll be left in no doubt.

On the bright side, after watching that my Woke Buzzword Bingo card is complete for the next few months 😊

Many will get it as they get older I hope. I was daft enough to think I could have a career and a family and wholly bought into the have it all fairytale. Hollow laugh.

We have at least learned this week that when people need their mum, they mean the AHF who was their primary care giver. And in most cases the woman who delivered them.

Growing up and having DC has taught most of us a thing or two.

This x 100, so sodding depressing, though also hilarious. She thought it was such a gotcha, too 🤦‍♀️

I wish Americans would talk about sex. The people critical of gender theory would find it much easier if they separated out sex and gender themselves

I agree, @OvaHere. Being able to say 'sex' has definitely aided the British pushback against gender woo ideology.