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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Non binary rant

56 replies

Scrunchy95 · 09/05/2022 10:05

Hi,
Please excuse me but i need a rant. So am leaving this here...
My daughter just told me that they are non binary. As far as they are concerned I am on board and supportive. Because being a good mum is the most important thing to me. But (shh) nope, I’m hating society right now. We are living in a time when in some places women are being outlawed to have abortions. Girls hate the idea of being a girl so much that they create a non existent category for themselves but men call themselves women and compete in our sports. Fucking fed up with it all. Who’s turning back the clocks? We were better off when we were the kids.
Right rant over..

OP posts:
Echobelly · 09/05/2022 21:51

Oldest also NB here - DH are what we call 'supportively sceptical'. The fact is, we're not going to win against the zeitgeist, even if we particularly wanted to try, so we're just being there, gently explaining that feeling weird about yourself and your body is normal adolescent stuff and this generation is seeing everything through the lens of gender right now, and encouraging their feminism. As others have said, being that tether. We are using their pronouns and preferred name (which is fortunately rather nice and I think might stick whether or not the gender identity does).

I do think there are a tiny number of people who are genuinely non-binary, and I know one or two adults who I think it really is a thing for.

For a lot of AFAB kids into it, it's a way of expressing not identifying with trad femme stereotypes, which is not the same thing, and you could go around pointing out contradictions etc, but no one, least of all a teenager, was ever convinced by smug 'Gotcha!' arguments about anything.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 09/05/2022 22:04

I'd say good, we seem to have done well at raising you to see that gender stereotypes are just that - stereotypes. I'd ask them to introduce to someone binary if they ever met one as it would be fascinating to talk to someone who felt willing and able to conform to every old-fashioned gender stereotype.

Nightmare2022 · 09/05/2022 22:16

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 09/05/2022 22:04

I'd say good, we seem to have done well at raising you to see that gender stereotypes are just that - stereotypes. I'd ask them to introduce to someone binary if they ever met one as it would be fascinating to talk to someone who felt willing and able to conform to every old-fashioned gender stereotype.

And when they tell you they want to have their breasts surgically removed because they are not a girl and they hate their own body so much they can’t bear to shower, what do you say then?

Vargas · 09/05/2022 22:32

Massive sympathy for those dealing with this crap. My teenage dd has recently told me that a nb person in her year has gone back to being a girl and seems happy to be called by either name. Hopefully sanity will prevail for all these unhappy and confused teens.

DomesticatedZombie · 09/05/2022 22:35

Nightmare2022 · 09/05/2022 22:16

And when they tell you they want to have their breasts surgically removed because they are not a girl and they hate their own body so much they can’t bear to shower, what do you say then?

That sounds so hard. Have you got support, help, healthcare?

BluesandClues · 09/05/2022 23:29

@Nightmare2022 as an older autistic woman (late diagnosed), I’d probably tell her the following.

That actually, this feeling of disconnect with your body, feeling out of step with your peers and society at large is not unusual. Autistic brains tend to mature a little later than neurotypicals. So whilst you’ve just about caught up with everyone at primary school, suddenly you’re launched into this even more complex social environment. The rules don’t make sense, it’s chaos unending, you probably never really thought about your body before.

Your body was just that, your body, you’d never really paid any attention to it. Then suddenly, you’re in an environment which pays a LOT of attention to the body. The social rules become a lot more complex, and seem to change on the whim of someone called Chloe or Dylan in the year above you.

Then your body starts to change, without any warning and you suddenly have to do things with it that you didn’t have to before. What do you mean shave my legs? But it makes my legs feel weird? Also, a bra?! The straps dig in, but that popular girl is wearing the same type, I should be wearing that. Make up? But it makes my face itch. Why do I need to do this? Also, love interests?! Not sure I like anyone, is this weird? The thought of a kiss sounds disgusting if i’m honest. But everyone else is doing it.

Id tell her that she probably feels weird, out of place, that she doesn’t fit in. That she doesn’t seem to be the same as everyone else. That inside she might question if she’s an alien because she doesn’t like what so and so likes. So she looks and sees that there are people online that describe what I’m feeling, that ‘oddness,’ and they say they’re non binary. Perhaps this explains it? This might be a way to have some control, to be able to make those inner thoughts that they struggle to process or figure out feelings.

I remember feeling exactly the same as a teenager, I wore baggy clothes until I was seventeen and had short hair. I literally looked like a boy, I didn’t want to be a boy. Just wasn’t really bothered by what others were bothered by. I have a vivid memory of sitting on the steps in the playground around aged 13/14 and others discussing shaving their legs. I remember looking down at my own legs, that I’d never shaved before and thinking ‘oh, is that what I’m supposed to do?’ Similar with eyebrows, mine were very thick. My younger sister had to help me (it didn’t go well 🤣😬). People used to talk about sex all the time, I felt weird that I didn’t really want to do any of that stuff. My control thing ended up being a full blown eating disorder (really common in autistic girls), body dysmorphia and crippling anxiety. I found refuge in Mills and Boon, and the Star Trek fandom online.

My brain did catch up a bit by the same I got to 16/17 and I felt happier in my body, and it was when I went to uni at 19 that I finally settled within myself and engaged in ‘girly things.’ I also got a crush on a bit of a twit, and made an absolute fool of myself in the process. Well, what was MSN messenger for if not that 🤣.

I think if I’d have been a teen today, I would have probably been labelled a transmale or non binary. Instead, I was labelled as a ‘bit of a weirdo tomboy.’

I’m now married, I have children. Probably still a bit of a tomboy to be fair, I still struggle with issues around eating disorders. I’m mostly recovered.

I think todays teens are rushed, rushed in ways that perhaps we weren’t. There’s so much more pressure as well, and you can’t just be nothing, you can’t just be ‘Jane’ you’ve got to be ‘Jane with an Instagram famous cat’ or the like.

I dunno, the above might be a load of old twaddle. I just hope things improve soon for you guys.

Wbeezer · 09/05/2022 23:39

@BluesandClues i read somewhere that a useful guide is to expect young people with ASD to have an emotional and social age two thirds of their actual age. Seems about right with regard to my kids.

MangyInseam · 10/05/2022 00:43

I would also say that it's totally normal for any teenager to feel really unmoored.

Anyone who has a radical change in the size and dimensions and shape of their body tends to feel like they don't belong in it. Most girls struggle to some extent to adjust to the practicalities of menstruation. Looking in the mirror and seeing someone who looks different than your mental image of yourself is disturbing.

One of the biggest tasks of adolescence is to rebuild that sense of connectedness to the body, and also to construct an integrated adult personality, both internally coherent, but also with new kinds of relationships to the environment and to other people.

The beginning of that by it's very nature will feel disconnected, alienated, confused, and incoherent. Telling teenagers that feelings like that mean something is wrong has to be about the worst possible thing. And telling them that becoming an integrated, connected adult might involve changing their body, gender, name, pronouns, etc, is making the whole task all the harder. Because it's those boundaries created by reality that give teenagers stable things to begin to build upon, like waypoints on a map. Without those realities, it's just chaos and order is not going to just emerge from it spontaneously.

User444 · 10/05/2022 00:57

Name changed for this.

My DS has been a Trans-man for a long time. My DD declared they were non binary a few years after their brother came out. I am sure there is a connection

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 10/05/2022 07:25

Nightmare2022 · 09/05/2022 22:16

And when they tell you they want to have their breasts surgically removed because they are not a girl and they hate their own body so much they can’t bear to shower, what do you say then?

Being non-binary is a state of relationship with gender stereotypes not a relationship with your body, despite what some TRA try to tell you. I'd tell them that our bodies do not actually signal our identities, again despite what TRAs tell you. Most people are non-binary with no body alteration needed.

ChopinBoard · 10/05/2022 07:35

Echobelly says "I do think there are a tiny number of people who are genuinely non-binary..." But what is non-binary?

Nightmare2022 · 10/05/2022 08:30

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 10/05/2022 07:25

Being non-binary is a state of relationship with gender stereotypes not a relationship with your body, despite what some TRA try to tell you. I'd tell them that our bodies do not actually signal our identities, again despite what TRAs tell you. Most people are non-binary with no body alteration needed.

I do say this, but we live in a society obsessed with looks and people respond to you based on how you look. My child says it is about how people respond to her as a girl that she doesn’t want. I am pretty sure part of this for my child is avoiding unwanted sexual attention from men.

Nightmare2022 · 10/05/2022 08:40

@BluesandClues thank you for sharing. That is helpful and I think is indeed similar to my child

@MangyInseam thank you that is a good explanation. I would like to read more. Can you recommend any books or articles?

@Echobelly yes I am following the same approach as you.

@Wbeezer I agree, my ASD child is completely out of their depth compared to NT peers. They don’t seem to understand the basic mechanics of a friendship. I have realised I need to spell it out to them, (and I’m not brilliant at it myself)

DoctorDaisy · 10/05/2022 08:40

This reply has been withdrawn

Withdrawn at poster's request

SedentaryCat · 10/05/2022 08:57

Thank you @IcakethereforeIam

We are quite a few years into it all TBH and just feeling very weary and worn down.We've tried setting boundaries - they go to their room and self-harm. What do you do? We've tried it all.

@Nightmare2022my child says the same thing about their breasts. They can't wait to have mutilating surgery and can't see that their feelings might change after surgery. They are now most definitely a transman and can't see that changing ever so can we use their proper pronouns. It's like a living hell.

Another row last night - not with my eldest they were staying with their partner - but with my DS, who is a huge supporter of the transition. He's 13, so easily led, and I worry for him. He's currently parrotting all the right words to keep onside with my eldest without really thinking about the consequences. I think they have swallowed the trans rhetoric without asking themselves why.

I feel a little broken this morning so I'm going to take it easy for a bit. There's a way through this that doesn't involve huge amounts of conflict. Thanks @Phobiaphobic for your kind words - yes, we are the tether to reality in an insane world. Just got to keep that grip on it.

foodfiend · 10/05/2022 08:58

The 'Gender, a wider lens' podcast has a good episode on non-binary identities:

There's a really great insight about exploring what such a declaration is trying to communicate, and that it may be a pretty generalised 'Non' to all kinds of things.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/05/2022 09:06

I do think there are a tiny number of people who are genuinely non-binary, and I know one or two adults who I think it really is a thing for.

What do you mean by "genuinely non binary"? This can only be based on sex role stereotypes. People aren't more or less "male" or "female" psychologically.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/05/2022 09:07

For a lot of AFAB kids into it

Sex is observed at birth. It's not a meaningless label.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/05/2022 09:09

Sounds so stressful, sad and draining. I guess every teenager since time began has been though a phase of thinking that their parents know nothing, and they know it all, but this is so much more intense as it's all being fuelled by social media

Indeed.

DomesticatedZombie · 10/05/2022 09:10

Nightmare2022 · 10/05/2022 08:30

I do say this, but we live in a society obsessed with looks and people respond to you based on how you look. My child says it is about how people respond to her as a girl that she doesn’t want. I am pretty sure part of this for my child is avoiding unwanted sexual attention from men.

Yes, that's hard. Would helping her with assertiveness work? She can't control how others act towards her, but she is able to control how she responds. I'm wondering about self defence classes, martial arts, something that lets her explore how strong her body is.

5oclockhero · 10/05/2022 09:17

So many of dd's friends are 'non-binary'. There's a group of 5 or 6 'cool girls' in her year and it seems to be all they talk about. Aged 13. I think it's more a positive fashion statement for them rather than being linked to any dysphoria. I find it alarming that 'just' being a girl is seen as so uncool.

Another thing that winds me up is the term non-binary. Excuse my extreme pedantry but 'binary' refers to the fact that there are two sexes. No individual is 'binary' (dictionary definition - relating to, composed of, or involving two things). And non-binary would indicate not being composed of two things - so just the one sex like everyone else then??

Lovemusic33 · 10/05/2022 09:24

Most of my DD’s friends are non binary. Dd is pansexual apparently. I don’t really care what she wears, who she dates etc.. but I don’t really understand why everything has to have a label. I guess if I was a teen now I would be calling myself non binary, I am female but I don’t conform as your regular female, I don’t wear make up, i wear clothes that could be often classed as male clothing, I have short hair and most of my friends are male, I’ve never worn high heal shoes and never had my eyebrows done 🤣 but I’m still very much female and don’t feel the need to label myself. I don’t see why wearing what I want needs to be labelled as anything different. I try telling dd this but it causes arguments so we no longer talk about it.

Echobelly · 10/05/2022 10:47

I can't claim to be an expert on non binaryness, but I do know a couple of adults who feel a profound disjunct from a binary gender identity and are living much more happily identifying that way and have been doing so for some time. But as I said, I think it's rare, definitely not something that there's a dozen instances of in a year in school.

IcakethereforeIam · 10/05/2022 10:50

I don't understand how all the politicians, celebrities, etc. can support, even encourage this. My youngest dabbles mostly, I hope, to try to get a rise out of me 'cause 'terf'. I have nothing really useful to say, I suspect any advice I might have you've already tried and rejected or are doing your best to follow.
How can someone like Nokes read these threads and still be able to sleep at night?

Ereshkigalangcleg · 10/05/2022 10:52

feel a profound disjunct from a binary gender identity

This can only happen if you adhere to sex role stereotypes and have fixed ideas of both sexes. It's a label for people who reject that these stereotypes, which they generally believe in for other people, apply to them specifically. I'm glad your friends are happy but it's basically like saying you are happier living as a goth or in a 24/7 master and slave relationship, it has no foundation in scientific reality.

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