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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Interesting article about women's rights and idolitics

15 replies

ISaySteadyOn · 07/05/2022 09:44

www.spiked-online.com/2022/05/07/rescuing-womens-rights-from-the-trap-of-identity-politics/

I don't always agree with Mr O'Neill but I liked this especially with regards to progressive authoritarianism.

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 07/05/2022 09:57

That is such a powerful article. He's written some very good articles about the trans madness but this one focussing on women's rights is barnstorming. Thank you for sharing it ISaySteadyOn

Roseglen84 · 07/05/2022 10:05

It's a great article, but I found myself getting more and more angry as I read through it. This bullshit has spread far and wide, infiltrated so many previously good institutions, that it makes me seriously question human intelligence and reasoning.

It's like a kick in the stomach to read that Ms Magazine is now down the rabbithole of nonsense. I love Gloria Steinem, have read a few of her books. How can she be ok with this?

And no, it's not about being 'inclusive', it's quite clearly about taking from women everything we have fought for. Nobody anywhere is debating the word man or its meaning.

And I'm sorry, I know youth and naivety blah blah, but seriously - how can young women just go along with and endorse this crap? Why are they so fucking blind to their own complicity?

334bu · 07/05/2022 10:08

Thanks for link.

Clymene · 07/05/2022 10:10

That is a banging article.

I was very struck by the utter hypocrisy of this: Constantly seeing that scarring w-word in reproductive-health settings made my ‘gender dysphoria’ worse, says that writer for Women’s Health; the ominpresence of the w-word meant they had to ‘emotionally disconnect’ from their experience of abortion.

Someone who finds the word woman enormously triggering but is happy to take the coin to write an article in Women's Health? They must have had to lie down in a darkened room when they got the cheque

BootsAndRoots · 07/05/2022 10:12

Listening to some of his podcasts, it is clear that Brendan O'Neill has changed his mind on issues (particularly around trans) after speaking to a lot of feminists.

Being a journalist and living in London, you're removed from real issues and start using the woke language of the metropolitan elite. But at some point you see the lunacy of it, particularly when people start saying men can get pregnant and can't define what a woman is.

A recent video where protesters where asked "what is a woman" shows how this problem came to be. If protesters can't form a coherent argument what hope have we got?

Nearly every issue whether it is about the environment, Ukraine, women's rights. The question is always "but what about trans people?".

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/05/2022 10:13

If people such as Douglas Murray and Brendan O'Neill hadn't spend so long in finally understanding that there is male privilege and that has been a huge factor in the success of the TRAs, I wonder if we'd be in the mess where women's rights need to be rescued to such a degree.

BO'N is a good writer and his contrast between Ginsburg and Jackson is striking as is the comparison of the times and what it's done to the discussion of abortion.

To Ginsburg, it was society’s deprivation of control to women, its restriction of a woman’s right to enjoy mastery over her biological self, that was dehumanising. It made a woman ‘less than a fully adult human’. Now it is the defence of a woman’s right to abortion that is apparently dehumanising.
…
This is the context in which the threatened overturning of Roe v Wade is taking place. Anyone who says this context doesn’t matter, that all we are witnessing is a finessing and improvement of language to make it more inclusive, is lying to themselves. The context in which the Roe v Wade judgement was made in 1973 was one in which the women’s liberation movement was making waves. Placards demanded women’s rights and women’s power to choose. Women’s organisations demanded the right of women to work, to stand for office, to enjoy equal treatment. Activists demanded improved women’s health, to facilitate women’s liberty. In stark contrast, the context in which Roe v Wade now quakes under that first-draft judgement of the Supreme Court is one in which you can be called a bigot just for saying ‘women’s health’. In which talking about women and their sex-based rights has been rebranded as a species of bigotry. In which any woman who insists that women are real and therefore deserve their own sex-based rights and spaces risks being called a bitch, a TERF or a whore and being cancelled from polite society.
…
[Even] though there has been a furious reaction from many liberals and leftists to that leaked anti-Roe v Wade draft judgement, this concern is unquestionably diluted by many of these people’s acceptance of the idea that sex is all in the brain, and that womanhood is a feeling, and that talking about biology is bigotry.

This is an excellent response to those who conflate the struggle for abortion rights and trans rights (NB: it's always important to recall the differences between the UK and US but the point holds here).

Following the Roe v Wade revelations, some in the woke set have argued that the fight for trans rights and the fight for abortion rights are the same struggle. This is completely untrue. The right to choose allows actual women to govern their lives. The right to identify as whatever sex you desire primarily allows actual men to pose as women and to insult any woman who dares to question his identity. Abortion rights expand women’s freedom. What passes for ‘trans rights’ these days too often restricts women’s freedom by punishing them for thoughtcrimes, for the bigotry of talking about sex-based rights, for their exercise of the freedom of association. Abortion rights fortify a woman’s government of her own body and life. Contemporary trans activism interferes with women’s sovereignty by co-opting the idea of womanhood, invading women’s spaces, and seeking to erase the very word ‘woman’. Even from abortion clinics. These are not the same thing. They are polar moral opposites, in fact.

I like Mary Harrington's thoughts on progressivism (nicely elaborated in her Triggernometry interview and an Unherd piece).

We need societal discussion that address the current concerns about liberty and the many threats to it that arise because we conform to the chilling effect of what happens to people (especially women in this arena of identity politics) who object to the erosion of our rights and freedoms.

ResisterRex · 07/05/2022 10:18

It's a solid article. I found myself thinking of Allison's tribunal, for there are parallels. If lesbians can no longer reference their sex, then they don't exist. Bearded males trespassing into lesbians' groups and spaces call the shots and that is an appalling state of affairs.

I was reading this part of the article when I thought of Allison, and thinking how this is not that far from it apparently being some form of crime for lesbians to object to cotton ceiling workshops. I think we have a societal problem we can't ignore:

"Think about it like this: if even saying ‘women’s health’ is now problematic, and if JK Rowling can be subjected to rape threats and death threats for saying men are not women, and if abortion providers are under pressure to say their services are open to men and non-binary people too, lest they be accused of making trans people feel ‘dehumanised’, how is it possible to mount a clear-cut case for the right of women to have the final say over their biology and their reproductive choices? It isn’t. The language one needs to make that case has been erased, or at the very least problematised. That is why many of us have argued against the top-down criminalisation of sex-based words and ideas in recent years – because without the right words, without that clarity of language and meaning, it becomes incredibly difficult to say what needs to be said."

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/05/2022 10:24

It's like a kick in the stomach to read that Ms Magazine is now down the rabbithole of nonsense. I love Gloria Steinem, have read a few of her books. How can she be ok with this?

Yes, Steinem, the author of "If Men Menstruated," and other leading feminists have been espousing this for some time: it's especially disappointing to see 1W and 2W feminists do this.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4207597-Gloria-Steinem-and-friends-Open-Letter

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/05/2022 10:26

Edited correctly (why didn't the revamp allow an edit function?).

It's like a kick in the stomach to read that Ms Magazine is now down the rabbithole of nonsense. I love Gloria Steinem, have read a few of her books. How can she be ok with this?

Yes, Steinem, the author of "If Men Menstruated," and other leading feminists have been espousing this for some time: it's especially disappointing to see 1W and 2W feminists do this.

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4207597-Gloria-Steinem-and-friends-Open-Letter

ISaySteadyOn · 07/05/2022 12:09

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/05/2022 10:13

If people such as Douglas Murray and Brendan O'Neill hadn't spend so long in finally understanding that there is male privilege and that has been a huge factor in the success of the TRAs, I wonder if we'd be in the mess where women's rights need to be rescued to such a degree.

BO'N is a good writer and his contrast between Ginsburg and Jackson is striking as is the comparison of the times and what it's done to the discussion of abortion.

To Ginsburg, it was society’s deprivation of control to women, its restriction of a woman’s right to enjoy mastery over her biological self, that was dehumanising. It made a woman ‘less than a fully adult human’. Now it is the defence of a woman’s right to abortion that is apparently dehumanising.
…
This is the context in which the threatened overturning of Roe v Wade is taking place. Anyone who says this context doesn’t matter, that all we are witnessing is a finessing and improvement of language to make it more inclusive, is lying to themselves. The context in which the Roe v Wade judgement was made in 1973 was one in which the women’s liberation movement was making waves. Placards demanded women’s rights and women’s power to choose. Women’s organisations demanded the right of women to work, to stand for office, to enjoy equal treatment. Activists demanded improved women’s health, to facilitate women’s liberty. In stark contrast, the context in which Roe v Wade now quakes under that first-draft judgement of the Supreme Court is one in which you can be called a bigot just for saying ‘women’s health’. In which talking about women and their sex-based rights has been rebranded as a species of bigotry. In which any woman who insists that women are real and therefore deserve their own sex-based rights and spaces risks being called a bitch, a TERF or a whore and being cancelled from polite society.
…
[Even] though there has been a furious reaction from many liberals and leftists to that leaked anti-Roe v Wade draft judgement, this concern is unquestionably diluted by many of these people’s acceptance of the idea that sex is all in the brain, and that womanhood is a feeling, and that talking about biology is bigotry.

This is an excellent response to those who conflate the struggle for abortion rights and trans rights (NB: it's always important to recall the differences between the UK and US but the point holds here).

Following the Roe v Wade revelations, some in the woke set have argued that the fight for trans rights and the fight for abortion rights are the same struggle. This is completely untrue. The right to choose allows actual women to govern their lives. The right to identify as whatever sex you desire primarily allows actual men to pose as women and to insult any woman who dares to question his identity. Abortion rights expand women’s freedom. What passes for ‘trans rights’ these days too often restricts women’s freedom by punishing them for thoughtcrimes, for the bigotry of talking about sex-based rights, for their exercise of the freedom of association. Abortion rights fortify a woman’s government of her own body and life. Contemporary trans activism interferes with women’s sovereignty by co-opting the idea of womanhood, invading women’s spaces, and seeking to erase the very word ‘woman’. Even from abortion clinics. These are not the same thing. They are polar moral opposites, in fact.

I like Mary Harrington's thoughts on progressivism (nicely elaborated in her Triggernometry interview and an Unherd piece).

We need societal discussion that address the current concerns about liberty and the many threats to it that arise because we conform to the chilling effect of what happens to people (especially women in this arena of identity politics) who object to the erosion of our rights and freedoms.

It is frustrating that it took O'Neill and Murray so long to change their minds, I agree. OTOH, they did change them. They did not stick dogmatically to their previous beliefs.

I am also surprised by Ms magazine.

OP posts:
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/05/2022 13:02

They did not stick dogmatically to their previous beliefs.

I'm delighted that they changed their minds. My difficulty is whether this has prompted any reflection for them as to why they discounted what women were saying for so long. Why did they consider women to be unreliable narrators of their experience even when they could see some of this happening in plain sight?

BootsAndRoots · 07/05/2022 13:24

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 07/05/2022 13:02

They did not stick dogmatically to their previous beliefs.

I'm delighted that they changed their minds. My difficulty is whether this has prompted any reflection for them as to why they discounted what women were saying for so long. Why did they consider women to be unreliable narrators of their experience even when they could see some of this happening in plain sight?

I don't think it's anything to do with male privilege or sexism. The trans debate has been branded as the next phase of gay rights and to be on "the right side of history", due this desire by gay rights groups (like Stonewall) to keep inventing new forms of discrimination to keep the donations coming in. If you're not a bigot you must support trans rights wholeheartedly etc.

Many of the femininist groups that wholeheartedly support trans rights can't be argued to have male privilege.

It's only really when people start being directly affected by it do they start changing their viewpoints. I wasn't really fussed over trans rights until I was forced to use mixed sex toilets (as single sex toilets disappeared), and saw that you couldn't call a man a man.

Sexual reassignment protection has been law for over a decade, so you can't campaign for that, so that's where self-ID nonsense comes in, and that polices language, something that affects journalists.

Give trans activists an inch and they'll take a mile.

PermanentTemporary · 07/05/2022 16:24

Fairly unscrupulous of BO'N to misuse Dr Sarah Dahlen's piece in the BMJ, which is exactly arguing the gender critical case that we DO need the word 'woman' in healthcare, to imply that it says the opposite. I'm with @EmbarrassingHadrosaurus on this.

MangyInseam · 07/05/2022 22:38

The other thing I would say about people like Murray or O'Neil is that women have not all been on the same page about this either. They didn't have to think all women were unreliable narrators to think this wasn't a huge issue.

Itscalledmisogyny · 07/05/2022 23:06

Great article, thanks for sharing OP.

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