Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 2

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The Tribunal started on 25th April at 10am. If you would like to view online you need to send a request for access as early as possible.

Send an email to

[email protected]

The subject heading of the email request should read

“MEDIA OR PUBLIC ACCESS REQUEST – Case number 2202172/2020 - Ms A Bailey – 25th April 2022.

Then ask for the pin for the online access.

You will be contacted with instructions on how to observe the hearing.

When joining the live tribunal
select the video and mic that are not crossed out, this is the courts vid and mic.
On the next page select NONE on the drop down windows for vid and mic, these are your own video and mic.

You must be muted so as to not disturb the hearing.

There is also live tweeting from twitter.com/tribunaltweets

Abbreviations:
AB: Allison Bailey, claimant
BC: Ben Cooper QC, barrister for AB
SW = Stonewall Equality Limited (respondent 1)
IO = Ijeoma Omambala QC, barrister for SW
RW = Robin White assisting IO
GC = Garden Court Chambers Limited (respondent 2) (GCC would be a better abbreviation)
AH = Andrew Hochhauser QC, barrister for GC
JR = Jane Russell assisting AH
RM= Rajiv Menon QC & SH = Stephanie Harrison QC (jointly respondent 3 along with all members of GC except AB)
EJ = Employment Judge Goodman hearing the case
Panel = any one of the three panel members (EJ and two lay members)

Allison Bailey v Stonewall - Employment Tribunal hearing Thread 1 👇

www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4529887-Allison-Bailey-v-Stonewall-Employment-Tribunal-hearing?

Good Times coverage, explained the case well.

Ooh someone's (or someones) going to great efforts to troll the TOL comments.

Attempting to deflect the exposure by complaining about the imaginary earning power of a black lesbian. Not a good look.

"A handbag?!"

Imagining Dame Edith Evans as Lady Bracknell.

Or possibly Dame Hilda Bracket.

Hooray I see Bailey achieved her crowdfunding target. And there is now coverage in the newspapers. Which makes it much easier to follow.

"A handbag?!"

Has to be a gold lamė one, of course.

Oh no and Stonewall and GCC have another three weeks of this…..

My sad face is on standby.

Oh God, I am not going yo get anything done if this goes on for another three weeks.

Yes I have become more hardline on this. "Woman" is not a club you can join or something a man can become if he has enough surgery. It just plays into the "terfs are gatekeeping womanhood" nonsense.

Meant to quote tabby's post about "honoury woman" there!

Many of the former lesbian-only, female-only events and groups and organisations I used to enjoy are now peppered with men getting a kick out of having been accepted as honorary women and honorary lesbians by people I once thought of as friends and sisters. It's a profound betrayal and not one I will ever get over. Our lesbian communities have been shattered by this.

Is there ho hearing today? I had finally time to log in but I'm not getting through and have been trying since before 10 am...?

It's a reading day. Resumes next week (it's always best to check Tribunal Tweets on Twitter if you can to see what's happening - link in OP).

Ahhhh thanks A LOT!

I live very rurally and our only group for LB women had to close down due to becoming dominated by a TW who demanded all the attention and made others feel uncomfortable.

our only group for LB women had to close down due to becoming dominated by a TW who demanded all the attention and made others feel uncomfortable.

Why is this always the outcome: TW takes over in line with their sense of entitlement and rather than be able to eject that person (which I understand) the women lose a facility that mattered to them and for which an alternative is no longer readily available.

Above should have read:

our only group for LB women had to close down due to becoming dominated by a TW who demanded all the attention and made others feel uncomfortable.

Why is this always the outcome: TW takes over in line with their sense of entitlement and rather than be able to eject that person (which I understand) the women lose a facility that mattered to them and for which an alternative is no longer readily available.

Because of their male entitlement, and because they are not there for the same reason as everyone else I guess. Their agenda is validation and self interest, not support.

The thing is, manipulative people will always try to worm their way into things and take over, it's just that now they are being given a green light and a pat on the back, and nobody is allowed to point out their bad behaviour because 'be kind'.

The honorary women thing is also really unfair on trans widows, who are automatically excluded from any women’s group or space that includes their exes.

Quite.

No special guest stars in women's single sex spaces.

If you wish to celebrate your very lovely friend, do it in a mixed sex space and don't involve non consenting others in your giving them the lovely experience you personally wish to enjoy bestowing on them.

I was talking to a couple of local younger feminists about this, and said we'd maybe have to go back to hosting gatherings in our own homes at this rate.

I remember doing it back in the 1980s in my flat when we were planning stuff like going to Greenham, taking action against a sexual entertainment etc. No prying eyes and ears, relaxed, the host provided hor drinks and others brought any other drink and food. Just the women's solidarity was a wonderful feeling.

I think that Lesbians have been the canary in the coal mine on the self id. I have read reports from a few woman about their groups being overtaken by sex talk obsessed transwomen.

Plenty of LB groups and women's support groups for female-only illnesses and disabilities have ended up having to 'officially' close and then go underground, meet privately in homes etc and never advertise. Most went that way because of similar experience: they tried being 'inclusive' and rapidly found it destroyed the group and the experience of the female people, and the group became untenable, a TQ+ focused group. Or else because they resisted and held the boundary of being female only they were targeted, harassed and forced out in punishment for wishing to meet as female only.

Of course the problem with this is that they cannot advertise, young lesbians or women in need of support with those health issues can't find the groups except through friends or word of mouth and female life is poorer and more difficult as a result.

But hey, male people got what they wanted.

And I agree we need to knock it on the head with 'honorary women' and 'honorary men'.

Interestingly (to me) the labelling of some women as 'honorary men' has been frowned upon for some time by historical anthropologists as a problemmatic, often orientalist approach. It's just a way of saying that either (a) they were women granted inheritance rights - well just say that then; or (b) they were women like Gertrude Bell working for the British Government who blagged their way into male spaces in the Middle East but couldn't do so back in Britain - again, just say that then.

There are some strictly lesbian-only and strictly women-only groups in my area, but they are organised secretly and not publicly visible. You have to know someone involved and have them vouch for you before you're added to a WA list or a FB group or whatever. Long gone are the days of being able to publicly advertise a women-only music event or a lesbian-only club night or a women-only tea dance. First of all the blue-haired person running the venue will refuse to allow you to book it for your event, because everything has to be inclusive and excluding male people isn't fair. And if you can overcome that hurdle, the moment you put out posters or flyers and advertise it openly on social media the 'but what about trans?' lot start up and try to cancel the. venue/ band/ DJ or whatever.

There are several groups I can point to who say they're for lesbian and bi women, but when you read the small print 'woman' includes any man who self-IDs as trans.