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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lib Dem canvassing guidance

35 replies

poshme · 03/05/2022 14:04

Lib Dem
Guidance for canvassers for those who ask 'transphobic questions'

www.aldc.org/2022/04/canvassing-tips-for-trans-issues-and-handling-transphobic-language-lgbt-liberal-democrats/

OP posts:
dolorsit · 03/05/2022 14:10

Oh good- that means it must be coming up during canvassing.

DomesticatedZombie · 03/05/2022 14:11

Well, that's the nice LibDem councillor scored definitively off my list, then.

Horizons83 · 03/05/2022 14:14

Such sneakiness in their Hostile Questions section!

Example: “Do you think trans-identifying men should be in women’s spaces?”

Sample responses:
“No, I think trans men should be in men’s spaces, and that’s our policy.”

Whatwouldscullydo · 03/05/2022 14:14

So either ignore question or repeat mantras then.

And if in doubt plea danger.

Worked out well for swinson didn't it...

Do they not realise that their I ability to answer simple questions or provide an honest answer will work against them.

hamstersarse · 03/05/2022 14:18

'How to never become a party that is electable' by the Lib Dems

Imagine politicians who are actual politicians having such a thing as a 'hostile question'?

Boris would do well to adopt this policy around 'hostile questions'

Peregrina · 03/05/2022 14:18

What a pity. This stance is seriously making me reconsider my membership of them. It won't make me vote Tory.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2022 14:26

Oh please please come here, Lib Dems!

Helleofabore · 03/05/2022 15:10

Wonderful!

They cannot say they aren't asked this question then!

NecessaryScene · 03/05/2022 15:12

“No, I think trans men should be in men’s spaces, and that’s our policy.”

So it's Lib Dem policy to bar transmen from female-only services? Put them in male prisons? Seriously?

girasol · 03/05/2022 15:19

With apologies for the length of my messages (and possibly for hijacking this thread!) I’m posting my exchanges with my local libdem councillor, with some identifying info removed.

FROM ME: I am concerned, however, that the Lib Dems are failing to protect women's rights and also the rights of children, and have instead been duped by lobby groups such as Stonewall who make misleading assertions as to the law as they wish it to be, rather than as it actually is.

Sex - whether someone is biologically male or biologically female - is a protected characteristic in the Equality Act. Women’s single-sex spaces and services matter for the dignity, privacy, and safety of women and girls. The Equalities and Human Rights Commission has recently confirmed that the Equality Act:
allows for the provision of separate or single sex services in certain circumstances, and that
people whose sex is different from their expressed gender may be excluded if doing so is a proportionate means to achieving a legitimate aim, such as for reasons of privacy, decency, to prevent trauma or to ensure health and safety.

I absolutely believe that transgender people should be treated with dignity and respect. However, that does not mean that the rights of 51% of the population should be sacrificed in order to spare the 'feelings' of a tiny number of male bodied people - and that those seeking to question this should be silenced by accusations of transphobia.
Why is this issue relevant to the local elections?
Local councils are responsible for or otherwise involved in the provision of a number of women's single-sex spaces and services. In particular:
Public toilets, and sports/leisure centre changing rooms. There are very clear safeguarding issues if anyone who 'identifies' as female is allowed access to women's toilets and changing rooms. It cannot be right that a male-bodied person can get changed and expose their genitalia to women and girls in a women's changing room. It just can't!!! Further, it is chilling that anyone who seeks to challenge this is silenced and accused of transphobia (there are numerous reports of this happening, including most prominently with the US transwoman athlete Lia Thomas who exposes their genitals in the women's changing rooms - female athletes have been warned not to complain about this).

While I appreciate schools are
not a local council issue, the above is now being played out in secondary schools across the country, where alarmingly girls are being forced to get changed and showered in front of male-bodied pupils who identify as female and whom the schools permit to change in the women's changing rooms, again due to a fundamental misreading of equalities legislation. Female pupils and their families are again accused of transphobia when they question this.

What message is this sending to girls and young women about consent in particular - that they must budge up and shut up to allow men into their spaces, and that if they feel uncomfortable about a situation they must keep silent?

An appropriate balance can and should be struck between the rights of women and the rights of trans people by the provision of gender neutral third spaces for anyone who does not feel comfortable using the facilities provided for their own sex.

Single sex sports teams and classes. It is also alarming that transwomen (and it is invariably transwomen, rather than transmen) have been permitted to participate and compete in women's sports teams, despite enjoying the significant physiological advantages of having been through male puberty. These advantages are not neutralised by transwomen athletes reducing their testosterone (and even when they do it is to levels multiples higher than naturally occur in women). Each time a male-bodied athlete is permitted to compete in a women's sporting category, it deprives a woman of a place in that competition.

Again, there is a simple answer to this which protects both women and provides transwomen athletes with the opportunity to compete fairly and with dignity: make 'men's' competitions open categories which anyone - male/female/trans/non binary can enter, while keeping women's sport for biological females only.

A related question is of women-only sports classes or sessions (eg women only gym classes of swimming sessions). Some women for religious, cultural or other reasons, do not feel able to participate in sporting activities with men, particularly when physical contact may be involved (eg a boxercise class). Is it right that they should be forced to quit such classes if a male-bodied person is permitted to join?

It absolutely goes without saying that the overwhelming majority of trans people do not present any threat to women or anyone else, but the same could of course be said of men. The fact is that women should be permitted the safety, dignity and privacy of single-sex spaces to protect them from the small minority of men and trans-women who would otherwise seek to exploit these spaces. Or to put it another way: if we are to allow transwomen into women's only spaces, why not just make these spaces open to everyone, men included?

I’m interested to know where you would stand on these issues. If elected, would you work to ensure that our local authority:
retains the concept of sex where it matters in language, communications, data collection, and policy development;
protects women’s single-sex spaces and services, both in direct provision, and where you have regulatory / partnership influence;
prioritises safeguarding the vulnerable, especially children, in the provision of all spaces and services where sex matters?
It is beyond depressing that at the national level, it seems to be only the Conservative party that is getting these issues right (even a broken clock and all that...)

I look forward to hearing from you so I can decide how to cast my votes.

girasol · 03/05/2022 15:20

REPLY 1 FROM LIBDEM COUNCILLOR:

Firstly, whilst we support trans-rights wholeheartedly and are committed to fighting for both gender equality and equality for all LGBT+ people, we still recognise the importance in some instances for single sex spaces, especially where young girls and people from some backgrounds and cultures are affected. For example, in our recent redevelopment plans for XXXX Community Centre, we have ensured that there are single sex spaces for washrooms, and bathrooms as they are frequented regularly by the Muslim community where separated areas are a must. We must remain mindful and inclusive of all, whilst navigating this sensitive, divisive and hostile debate which has recently become very toxic.
Just like the other main parties (Labour, Greens and Conservatives), we all support the Equality Act which has been around for over a decade and protects woman, trans people and others. We believe in the safety and dignity of every individual. We do know that this is a difficult issue, but we are not proposing any dramatic change in law, we simply agree with this Government when they say that gender recognition processes are bureaucratic and intrusive.

With regards to your question surrounding sports... this is obviously a difficult question which is best decided by each sporting body/club in relation to their sport. There are three priorities which need to be balanced here, safety, fairness and inclusion. That balance and individual situation will vary from sport to sport, and from location to location. Again, this is part of the wider debate which has become toxic and hostile. We need to get past that, and have a good-faith conversation about ensuring everyone's safety and dignity.

Thanks again for your questions and I hope that helps you cast your decision.

girasol · 03/05/2022 15:22

MY SECOND MESSAGE:
Thank you for taking the time to reply to me when I know you are very busy.

I note what you say in relation to your example of maintaining single sex spaces at XXXX Community Centre washrooms. But the point is not whether these spaces exist, it is about who is permitted to use them. In particular, do you agree

  • that any male bodied person who claims to identify as female should be able to access women’s toilets/changing rooms, and (in relation to the latter) to undress and expose their male genitalia to women and girls there? Because this is the implication of the LibDem policy “Trans women are women”.
  • that natal women should accept this without challenge or complaint, and if they do challenge a male bodied person entering eg a women’s and girls’ changing room that they are being transphobic?

This is not some hysterical Daily Mail made-up scenario, this is already happening! In schools (girls are forced to accept any boy who claims to identify as a girl into their changing rooms) as well as leisure centres, rape crisis centres, domestic violence refuges, women’s prisons (Google Karen White, a transwoman sex offender who sexually assaulted women in prison), women’s hospital wards (see the speech made by Baroness Nichols last month in the House of Lords, detailing how an NHS trust spent a year denying a woman patient had been raped by a transwoman because there were “no men on the ward” so a rape could not have occurred).

It is a serious safeguarding issue and it is difficult to understand how the “feelings” of a tiny number of people can be allowed to take precedence over it.

I completely agree there should be a respectful debate from both sides, but unfortunately women who dare to speak out publicly receive death threats and harassment (Rosie Duffield MP, Kathleen Stock, JK Rowling, all of whom have made clear they believe trans people should be treated with dignity and respect). And the likes of Stonewall try to intimidate and silence us with #NoDebate.

The sporting issue is not, with respect, complicated at all. We do not have women’s sports categories so that people who “feel feminine” can compete agains each other. We have different sports categories (women, veterans, para athletes, U16s etc) due to physical and physiological differences between these groups and male / able bodied / young adults.

If we open women’s sporting events up to athletes who have enjoyed the physiological benefits of male puberty, should we not allow people who “identify” as disabled to enter a para athlete event, or a young at heart 20 year old from and U14s competition? When you have more time, I would highly recommend this article by Olympic swimmer Sharon Davies who makes the point more powerfully than I can:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/sharron-davies-injustice-of-transgender-athletes-has-echo-of-the-dopers-i-faced-x8lzv9hj7

I appreciate you have many other issues and voter queries to contend with and having made my points I do not propose prolonging this exchange. I would, however, welcome a short, definitive answer to my two bullet points above.

girasol · 03/05/2022 15:24

LIBDEM COUNCILLOR SECOND REPLY
To be clear, I believe that safeguarding is very important in all settings, especially those involving vulnerable people. Public order laws apply to all single-sex spaces, but they are based on behaviour, not identity. A crime is a crime no matter who commits it. My Liberal Democrat colleagues and I are very clear that supporting trans rights does not contradict women's rights.
Although as you say, transwomen are a minority, members of a minority still have the right to have their rights protected. They deserve to have their identity recognised and their dignity respected, but far too many face discrimination, harassment and intimidation.
Implementing restrictions based on appearance or on sex assigned at birth increases the risk of violence and abuse that all women and girls face, and would constitute a completely unacceptable level of intrusion. You may be interested to know that the British Medical Association has voted to support self ID for trans and non-binary people and have called on the Government to make the process of legally changing gender less medicalised and instead via a witnessed, sworn statement.
However, single-sex spaces are often very difficult and sensitive decisions for service providers to make. In many cases we’re talking about women – trans or not – who’ve been the victims of sexual assault or domestic abuse at the hands of men. Making sure all women get the support they need, and that they can feel safe, is critically important.
It’s right that each organisation needs to look at their own specific case and decide what’s best for the people who use their services. What they need is clear guidance about what’s lawful and appropriate.

I’m afraid that, even with this new guide from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, there still isn’t enough clarity for those organisations or for individuals who want to use their services. Six relatively specific examples just isn’t enough to cover the vast range of different circumstances.

What we need from the government is much clearer and more comprehensive guidance on how to make sure everyone can access the services they need, safely.

I appreciate that this may not have been the brief bullet pointed response you were looking for, but I hope this has been helpful in setting out my views.

girasol · 03/05/2022 15:27

I’ve not had a chance to digest fully but it seems in LibdemLaLaLand a transwoman can only ever be a victim of sex/gender based harassment, violence and sexual violence and the mere act of thinking themselves a woman means they will never be a perpetrator 🙄

Bimster · 03/05/2022 15:36

NecessaryScene · 03/05/2022 15:12

“No, I think trans men should be in men’s spaces, and that’s our policy.”

So it's Lib Dem policy to bar transmen from female-only services? Put them in male prisons? Seriously?

I'm pretty sure this isn't the policy- no one could seriously be suggesting trans men in male prisons. Just an example of how poorly thought through this all is.

peonyred · 03/05/2022 15:41

The Lib Dems have lost my vote, I can't face voting Tory, Labour are a lost cause and even the Women's Equality Party believe TWAW....I am spoiling my ballot paper and writing Woman = adult human female - God - it is depressing.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 03/05/2022 16:03

no one could seriously be suggesting trans men in male prisons

The Lib Dems have some of the most extreme TRAs as members and policy influencers.

zen1 · 03/05/2022 16:08

I was that close to voting Lib Dem because I do support the stance they are taking on a local issue, but having read that patronising ‘we can’t think for ourselves’ guidance, they can do one. I shall have to spoil my ballot paper again.

Peregrina · 03/05/2022 16:15

Thank you girasol - clear and well argued.

Sooner or later this dogma that transwomen are anything other than of the male sex needs to stop. I read somewhere though that it was like the Berlin Wall - when just one person tried to cross, they got shot. When thousands stormed the wall they had to let them through - even the guards weren't callous enough to massacre people.

Abitofalark · 03/05/2022 16:29

That exchange with Lib Dem illustrates why it I don't think it is helpful to introduce argument for special cases. It simply undermines the claim for rights of all women and girls which is the case that needs to be made. My rights or those of girls in any school aren't trumped by others'. The Lib Dems do the predictable dance and seize on the special case and oh yes they will make a concession on that basis, as indicated above. Recognition of our needs does not and must not rely upon a basis of special cases and special concessions and the rest can go hang.

Also shows why we must insist on maintaining the meaning and use of words such as 'woman', which doesn't require qualification as if there is some additional meaning included in the word which makes it necessary to specify what we mean by prefacing it with an adjective.

Tanith · 03/05/2022 16:51

"I was that close to voting Lib Dem because I do support the stance they are taking on a local issue, but having read that patronising ‘we can’t think for ourselves’ guidance, they can do one. I shall have to spoil my ballot paper again."

Has your candidate repeated the guidance answers? They are written by the LGBT Liberals, some of whom are trans activists. There's no obligation for candidates to use them.

Ask your candidates to state their own position. If you agree, then I don't see why you can't vote for them.

WookeyHole · 03/05/2022 16:57

I'm quite fortunate that in my area for next week, the LibDems have chosen not to field a candidate against a fairly strong independent local residents' party so as not to split the anti Tory vote. So at least I don't have to vote for this. Much much harder for national elections.

VivaDixie · 03/05/2022 16:57

That is interesting because my local Lib Dem councillors were very receptive to my concerns - in fact they agreed with me. I raised the issue of TW in women's safe spaces and they both (one male one female) were in complete agreement - I asked for it to be filtered up the system and they said they would as they had been asked this question more frequently recently.

SamphirethePogoingStickerist · 03/05/2022 17:08

@girasol Crikey, that's all a bit of dog's dinner, isn't it? Who knons what they are actually saying? Other than some women, who seem to be mostly transwomen, may be hurt by such things.

The part that screamed out at me was: Implementing restrictions based on appearance or on sex assigned at birth increases the risk of violence and abuse that all women and girls face, and would constitute a completely unacceptable level of intrusion.

He said that restricting spaces to one sex would increase the risk of violence that ALL women and girls would face.

He said that such restrictions would be intrusive

He didn;'t mean ALL, did he? He meant transwomen... in some alternative universe were the statistics are completely different to those that exist in this version of the UK!

Intrusive? Did he mean he envisaged such restrictions would require checks on genitalia? Or just asking, refusing access to men?

I wonder if someone held him down and threatened his guinea pig whilst he typed that? It isn't the output of a sane and sensible mind, is it?

GrimDamnFanjo · 03/05/2022 17:35

So glad I'm no longer a member.