I'm having an "are we the baddies" moment

[JakeyRolling]

Please talk me down.

Company has an internal newsletter/magazine which people can write for.

Colleague has written a piece about trans issues and it's like a bingo card - cis, terf, the trans suicide stat and the "intersex people are neither male or female" argument. Goes on to say we should let them pee in pieces (in womens spaces) because they're women and fear men as much as we do 🙄

Comments from other colleagues are full of praise for it.

I feel so out of step and wrong, despite knowing the arguments don't make sense.

It just feels like it would be easier to give in.

I very much sympathise with the OP. I want to be kind and not deny anyone fair treatment. And I always try to keep trans people (most of whom are ordinary nice people) separate from gender identity ideology (authoritarian and would result in a society based on openly sexist stereotypes and hierarchies) and the bullies who force it on us (in very undemocratic and bullying and nasty ways).

So yes, I am often torn. But when rights conflict that must be discussed and no one group has the right to re-define all the words we use to describe ourselves.

There has been no open debate about how common an abstract gender identity is, what the words 'men' and 'women' should mean. There hasn't been even any acceptable explanations from the TRAs to explain why only the female sex is being erased and not the male sex.

And as there are costs to the things the TRAs demand it is crucial to be able to talk about the fact that almost all negative consequences will be paid by the female sex. The male sex is barely inconvenienced by any of this. But this asymmetry is not talked about, either, because we are forcefully silenced in so many places.

lassupthebrew

I think people transition ‘nowadays’ with a lower (not sure this is the right word) threshold of mental pain. Because there is less stigma attached to it, people do it more readily. And I think that’s fine and good. Adults should be able to do what they want to do.

For me, the question is whether they can meet the needs of the kids. One of those needs is basic honesty. They can’t be someone who is going to try to hide or lie about their natal sex, or someone who doesn’t understand that sex can’t physically change.

I understand that some people believe natal sex is a ‘privacy’ thing, but I can’t say I think it’s okay to keep this information a ‘secret’ from children, because nearly all the time that just means gaslighting children.

Just wanted to add to the list of things people don't feel they can discuss includes what actual statistics on homicide rates tell us etc. You know, facts.

It's a test OP. I mean otherwise what was the point of the piece, is the person themselves trans? It's to see who the sheep are. Who is willing to agree with an obvious lie (or too stupid to think into it deeply). You can join in with the sheep, or you can smile and say Not today Satan, not today :).

I'm too tired to figure it why my link won't work. SS.

Thank you

I've seen any gender toilets appearing all over the show at a uni I'm a visiting lecturer at. Maybe that's the way forward - there are still women's and men's toilets btw so these are new facilities.

There is def a diff between sex and gender. You are born a sex - male, female, both or neither sex depending up physiology. Your gender, however, can be influenced by emotional and social factors. I am OK with this, but I do worry about idiots like the Souham murderer, who thinks saying they are a trans or no longer male, is a ticket out of their situation.... others may also take advantage too...

I completely understand OP.

This issue infuriates me and I'm very passionate about it. Very vocal on Twitter etc.

I question my views regularly, and I think that it's healthy to do that. It can be hard when, as a left wing person, you see only right wing parties lining up with your views and left wing parties adopting the TWAW mantra. It does make you wonder sometimes whether you're just missing the point somehow - and I say this despite being vehemently and absolutely sure that I'm not!....but sometimes I get worried that I am.

Yesterday I read a thread on here about a trans woman called Dylan who "apparently" has been offered sponsorship by Tampax. Someone said they found it hard to hate Dylan as they were so joyous, so I went and checked out their Instagram. I didn't watch all their videos, just a few. Dylan is American so there are very big culture differences that I find a bit twee and navel-gazing.....but setting that aside, Dylan is delightful. The joy at life and the joy at being able to express themselves is really hard to resist. And despite the fact that we're on different sides of the line, I couldn't help but feel happy for them.

And actually just for a brief moment, Dylan's videos did give me pause for thought. And then I found one where they were upset. A gender critical podcaster had found Dylan's Instagram and dedicated a whole show to discussing them. Dylan was deeply distraught that hundreds of comments were directed at them personally, rather than just the trans movement in general. Lots of tears - understandably. I normally eye roll at the crying videos but actually I felt a real pang of sympathy.

But then for the interesting bit. Dylan went on to say that the podcaster had said something along the lines of "it's great that Dylan is so happy, and I fully support their right to dress and express themselves how they want - but why can't Dylan just be a feminine man who expresses themselves in that way, why do they need to claim womanhood, it's not necessary". I was very interested to hear Dylan's reply because that's EXACTLY what I think. Dylan was very upset by this and responded quite viscerally, strongly rejecting the notion that they are just a non-conforming man and insisting that they ARE A WOMAN. And that's when Dylan lost me. Dylan has a five o'clock shadow. No one would look at Dylan and be confused about their biological sex. Dylan very clearly isn't a woman. And while I can't help but smile at their joy - even if some of the things they say are a bit ridiculous - when they claim womanhood, it just pisses me off because it's blatantly not true. Hearing Dylan claim womanhood produced the same visceral response in me - it's so deeply untrue I can't ever pretend to be on board with this. I don't want to hurt Dylan, they seem like a genuinely decent person but I can't try to pretend I believe things which are so clearly wrong. It's all just a bit Emperor's New Clothes.

And I do feel sorry for the individuals who are genuine and not just fetishising womanhood. It must be genuinely awful to feel uncomfortable with your biological sex. I can't pretend to know what that's like but I can see how that must be really terrible. And I can treat people with compassion, and support them to express themselves in the way that feels comfortable. But I can't lie about the truth, and I can't support people who lie just to make themselves feel OK.

I think if the TRA brigade weren't so aggressive, misogynistic and hateful we'd make some progress because there are lots of women who would be very supportive of individuals who are gender non-conforming. But denying the impact on our safety, refusing to consider the rights of certain groups such as Muslim women or women who have been abused, just shows that they're not interested in reaching a solution. Nothing less than claiming everything will ever be enough for them, and that's why I dig my heels in and refuse to compromise on what I know to be true, even though I feel compassion for people like Dylan.

I also think the tide is turning. People are starting to see that "be inclusive, be kind" has gone too far and I think we're going to see a slow roll back to a more sensible position.

I find myself in a bit of a questioning mood today too. I have to speak to my boss tomorrow, basically to get him to tell the genderist in my workplace to stop spouting shite at me. He’s a lovely hetero (I assume - he’s got a wife and 2 kids!) guy, and I think doesn’t really know the issues. The situation is affecting my workplace as a whole, and while I don’t really want the conversation, it needs to be had. I’m dreading it and doubting myself 😒

It's easy.

Four simple questions:

1. What are you going to do with all the female people excluded from anything so that male people can have freedom of choice and absolute recognition of their personal choice of identity?

2. How many female people are acceptable collateral damage in terms of exclusion, assault, rape, so that male people may have this absolute freedom of choice and recognition? Stick a number on it. Are you volunteering to be one? Your mum? Your sister? Your daughter? Would you look them in the face in a rape suite and tell them they should consider their rape a worthwhile sacrifice for the greater good so that a male person can live their best life?

3. Where is there any reciprocation? What sacrifices are male people making in turn? What kindness? What respect for identity? What care or interest in female needs, exclusion, harms? Or is this entirely about people born female have a birthright of sacrifice and subordination to serve the interests of people born male while they service a conceit (in the original sense of the word) that sex isn't a thing? Do female people benefit equally from this?

Which leads to 4) How is this not male supremacism?

An excerpt from SpidersAreShitheads post

But then for the interesting bit. Dylan went on to say that the podcaster had said something along the lines of "it's great that Dylan is so happy, and I fully support their right to dress and express themselves how they want - but why can't Dylan just be a feminine man who expresses themselves in that way, why do they need to claim womanhood, it's not necessary". I was very interested to hear Dylan's reply because that's EXACTLY what I think. Dylan was very upset by this and responded quite viscerally, strongly rejecting the notion that they are just a non-conforming man and insisting that they ARE A WOMAN.

And this is the problem. Nothing less than total validation suffices, no third spaces, no partial inclusion, and no references to the female body or its functions unless those references are turned into gender-neutral ones.

It took me a long time to understand that this is the demand.

The Twitter hashtag "#trans women are women" means exactly that:

The definition of 'woman' is not allowed to include anything that a trans woman couldn't have. And so the female body can no longer be called female, and the female sex cannot be mentioned at all.

This erases the gender of all women who define it on the basis of their bodies being female and on how it is to live as a female person in this world.

So the price we are asked to pay for someone else's happiness is just far too steep.

"Are we the baddies"

Just remember all the detransitioners who wished someone just said "no" to them.

If everyone was affirmed in their new gender identity just think of all those people who will go on to detransition because they were rushed into it by the pressure groups, and all of the damage that they'd done to their bodies.

Also remind yourself of a lot of interviews with transsexuals (people who have actually medically transitioned) and they state how their lives were better a few years ago before Stonewall et al started all of this lobbying.

I think @SpidersAreShitheads has captured how many of us feel. We want them to be happy, we recognise some of their distress and difficulty being them. But we have to draw the line at agreeing someone is actually a female woman just the same as all the other women. And life is not fair - sometimes peoples personal challenges mean avenues are closed. Transitioning gender makes it harder to find people who want to be in a romantic -sexual relationship for many people, which can naturally be a source of distress. But dictating others should be ok with entering into this relationship with you isnt the answer.

I often question/challenge myself on it too but for me the dealbreaker is self ID. If we all (women and trans women) agree that VAWG is the problem and the reason to allow access to female toilets then why pull down all the safeguards? Why wouldn’t transwomen be just as protective of the process to demonstrate gender dysphoria? To be fair I have seen this position from a number of TW - but resolutely not TRAs.

'are we the baddies' is a good and useful question, and one EVERYBODY should ask themselves frequently.

Self examination, openness to consideration of one's own beliefs/opinions especially in the light of any new evidence, self doubt, a willingness to listen and change one's mind - all very healthy and essential to developing critical thinking.

It's very natural to want to agree with our peers. It's very hard to 'go against the tide'.

At the same time: 'I'd rather be rude than a fucking liar'. (Magdalen Berns)

Dylan seems lovely and sincere, indeed. On the other hand, some of Dylan's characterising of 'being a girl' as constantly crying, shopping for expensive clothing, etc etc - I find genuinely offensive. And potentially harmful. If a young girl watches that video, what is she going to learn? That she is 'weak', 'emotional', shallow - you can add your own silly stereotypes here.

I have no personal animus against Dylan, I don't really care what Dylan chooses to wear, etc. But the things Dylan says and the way Dylan presents 'being a girl' is symptomatic of a movement and ideology that is actively damaging and harmful for women and girls - many of whom are ALSO lovely, funny, sweet, kind and sincere.

I'm with you and I think it's a good process.

I do believe that the future won't look like the past - it will be something new. And there will be new things that we get used to in it. I also think that the GC argument is fossilizing into certain statements that are just as designed to stop thought as TWAW. That's a danger we should guard against.

I also believe that gender differentiation is becoming more extreme because it is genuinely true that sex is less important and less restrictive than it used to be, and it should be a good thing to see that.

I see gender as making sex more not less important

It's bleeding it out from just biology into other stuff ?

Maybe it is because I'm old (53). The sexism and homophobia of the past was so extreme. There was a time apparently when women couldn't be newsreaders because their blink rate was supposed to be too high or too low or something. Sexusm and homophobia are both alive and well now but there genuinely are positive changes at least in some aspects of both.

I don't think massive gender division and ideology is helpful either - I can see that my post reads as if I did - but I think there is some underlying improvement in the lives of women and gay people.

My dad used to pride himself on being socially liberal, accepting of everyone and was hugely critical of the Catholic church. But, he voted against divorce, equal marriage and abortion (Irish referenda). He couldn't see that he was aligning himself with organisations he hated, and it always disappointed me that he never questioned his views and whether he really was the liberal lefty he thought himself.

Do you usually agree with the Daily Mail and the Tories? What about your trusted friends and family, what do they think?

I think if you find yourself agreeing with sources you usually dislike on one side and disagreeing with people whose judgement you ordinarily trust on the other, it's wise to consider your views.

not really. there's loads of rampant, hateful, transphobia out there, loads of it, especially online (e.g. see www.google.com/search?q=transphobic+meme+suicide&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwi-06SEsbv3AhVNnRoKHUIyCagQ2-cCegQIABAC&oq=transphobic+meme+suicide&gs_lcp=ChJtb2JpbGUtZ3dzLXdpei1pbWcQAzoHCCMQ7wMQJzoGCAAQBRAeOgYIABAIEB5QlwhY2BFgxRdoAHAAeACAAUeIAYQCkgEBNJgBAKABAcABAQ&sclient=mobile-gws-wiz-img&ei=NPVsYr7pIc26asLkpMAK&bih=737&biw=393&client=ms-android-xiaomi-rvo3&prmd=ivn). the trans lobby very understandably from its perspective conflates this kind of hate peddling (most of it done by male incel types) with what I see on Mumsnet, namely (with the odd exception) the voicing of legitimate concerns about encroachment into women's spaces.

I don't find any single other person never mind News source that I agree with on everything

But a lot of people I respect have broadly similar views to me and the ones I have been surprise by I have been particularly surprised that they were no debate or discussion

It's nice to be nice. Lesbian, gay and bisexual people and gender non-conforming people are entitled to lots of love and support and, as a GNC older woman, I know that wasn't always forthcoming. My devout religious and/or socially strict family were actually always encouraging and lovely my whole life. Not everyone has been so lucky.

BUT women and girls are entitled to safe spaces away from male bodied people. They are entitled to fairness in life and in sport. Men are trying to colonise it with self-ID and calling themselves victims if we call it out.
Children who need love and support as they navigate puberty are being channelled down a particular path for ideological reasons. They deserve grown ups who will stand up for them when they are too distressed to do it themselves.

And if the left won't talk about it, fuck 'em. I know the right just want to sow division and succeed on everything by being correct on the one thing they are getting right. I'm not a fucking idiot. I see that.
We should learn the lesson of Brexit. If the left can't talk clearly and sensibly about people's reasonable concerns, the right get to dictate all the outcomes.
I voted Remain by the way and the liberal left fucked it up.