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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I'm having an "are we the baddies" moment

123 replies

JakeyRolling · 29/04/2022 18:45

Please talk me down.

Company has an internal newsletter/magazine which people can write for.

Colleague has written a piece about trans issues and it's like a bingo card - cis, terf, the trans suicide stat and the "intersex people are neither male or female" argument. Goes on to say we should let them pee in pieces (in womens spaces) because they're women and fear men as much as we do 🙄

Comments from other colleagues are full of praise for it.

I feel so out of step and wrong, despite knowing the arguments don't make sense.

It just feels like it would be easier to give in.

OP posts:
tabbycatstripy · 29/04/2022 19:12

It’s not your responsibility to believe any old twaddle because some other people say it’s ‘progressive’ or ‘inclusive’. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. If they were right, they would prove it. As it is, they have to make do with censorship, emotional blackmail and an awe-inspiring level of Gish gallop.

NoviceNetwork · 29/04/2022 19:13

I've felt worn down too sometimes, it would just be so much easier to go along with it.

But I just can't.

The same as I couldn't maintain a pretence that blue is actually orange, or that tigers can turn into gerbils.

The obvious gaslighting always reignites my righteous anger at anyone trying to force their version of reality on to others, even at the expense of others.

If you need to, just shit everything off for a while. Take a break. Some wampy batshittery will inevitably call you back to the fight when you are refreshed and ready to go again Smile

Georgeskitchen · 29/04/2022 19:13

Well if wishing to protect women's spaces and safeguard children makes me a baddie......count me in!!

TheCurrywurstPrion · 29/04/2022 19:15

I periodically wonder whether all that transactivism is currently demanding will come to pass, and it will turn out not to be too awful and not too many men will abuse it and it will become acceptable and accepted, in the same way gay marriage has, despite strong opposition at various points.

But the difference is, that no matter how I try, I can’t think of any circumstance under which gay people living together or getting married can directly (or even indirectly) cause harm that would not have occurred had it not become acceptable.

I can’t say the same for transactivism. If the demands made do come to pass, women will be harmed. It might be at a level that society deems acceptable, but there’s no doubt whatsoever that women losing the right to single sex spaces will cause harm.

So we cannot be “the baddies” for pointing that out. We may be misjudging the level of harm to women, or be underestimating the potential harm to men who claim they are women, were they to be allocated separate spaces, rather than be shoved into women’s spaces (though it’s hard to see what real harms that could cause). But I don’t see how pointing out the genuine clash of rights, while the process of deciding whether those rights should change, can ever be a bad thing.

Those commenting probably just haven’t given it much consideration.

When you say “giving in” do you mean “pretending to agree” or “staying silent”? Because the latter is not unreasonable, if you can’t face speaking up, whatever the reason. But as tabbycatstripy just said, you are unlikely to be able to change your belief and truly accept what they’re saying, because you can see the flaws in it. Once seen, there’s no going back.

NancyDrawed · 29/04/2022 19:20

Goes on to say we should let them pee in pieces (in womens spaces) because they're women and fear men as much as we do 🙄

But you know that an adult male who calls himself a woman (whether due to dysphoria or any other reason) is not the same as an adult female human. I get that some men are frightened of other men - doesn't make them women!

Isonthecase · 29/04/2022 19:20

I think you'll be surprised by how many people have much more middle ground sort of views than you'd think to hear the extreme ends shouting about it. Plenty of people are happy to have views that differ from others but they're hardly going to write in to a newsletter about it. It's a shame saying you're not totally convinced by the whole thing is so unacceptable in some workplaces.

IcakethereforeIam · 29/04/2022 19:22

I know I'm prejudiced but I'm minded to think your company was neglectful to allow a piece on such an issue. Precisely because of the feelings of GC employees. I think similar thoughts about fecking pronouns. Would they have allowed something written by someone who doesn't buy the genderwoo? Also, are you sure this isn't 'outing' for you?

JakeyRolling · 29/04/2022 19:25

Not worried about outing because I think it's vague enough.

The DSD thing hacked me off though, because the community has repeatedly asked not to be pulled into this debate.

OP posts:
FOJN · 29/04/2022 19:40

I am thinking "am I wrong here? Am I just too ignorant to understand?"

I think we've all experienced the "am I missing something" feeling. It's hardly surprising when people who seem sane and logical in almost all other areas of life take to parroting the doctrine of gender religion. I think it's good to keep questioning things. I remain ready and willing to have my mind changed but every time the gender radicals try they just convince me even more that there is no substance to their arguments. I don't think you're wrong at all, the gender house is built on sand and the tide is rising.

Lynnthesearesexnotgenderpeople · 29/04/2022 19:47

I absolutely agree that we should all have 'are we the baddies' moments.

It's called critical thinking.

LK1972 · 29/04/2022 19:47

It is an issue that has if great concern to many life-long feminist campaigners (eg Julie Bindel) and Labour voters, so I don't think you coming from a conservative background has anything to do with it. It's kind of a stick to beat yourself with for not aligning with the most 'progressive' views.

I really feel that issues need to be judged on merit, removing the ideological lens as much as possible, and there is no merit in life-long medication of gender non-conforming children, or in removal of if single sex spaces.

And I really object to being referred to by the body parts, eg 'uterus haver' that this 'human rights' movement seems to think actual women should be called, just fuck off with that, it's de-humanizing Hmm

tabbycatstripy · 29/04/2022 19:48

I tried so hard to agree with it. I do agree with some of it. People have every right to dress as they want to and give themselves new names. Gender non-conformity is a thing (because gender is a thing). There may be such a thing as innate non-conformity (I don’t know).

But none of those things mean I have to ignore biological sex, or pretend people can change sex.

motherofchihuahuas · 29/04/2022 19:50

tabbycatstripy · 29/04/2022 19:48

I tried so hard to agree with it. I do agree with some of it. People have every right to dress as they want to and give themselves new names. Gender non-conformity is a thing (because gender is a thing). There may be such a thing as innate non-conformity (I don’t know).

But none of those things mean I have to ignore biological sex, or pretend people can change sex.

This is it.

You can agree with gender but sex is different. Different biology.

RoseslnTheHospital · 29/04/2022 19:50

I think it's a mistake to consider a gender critical feminist position to be a conservative point of view. That mistake comes about because conservative and Christian/religious points of view would also agree that you cannot change sex, but it isn't because they are gender critical or feminist.

Etinoxaurus · 29/04/2022 19:53

tabbycatstripy · 29/04/2022 18:58

How would you, though? If I offered you a million pounds, would it make you believe people could change sex?

I’d say most twaw supporters don’t believe it. They don’t disbelieve it, they’ve just not given it a moment’s thought. There’s an apparently simple culture war and they’re the useful idiots.

lassupthebrew · 29/04/2022 19:56

JakeyRolling, your post shows you are a decent person thinking like this. It is really up to the transitioner in such a hypothetical situation to match your concern. Not simply expect everything must go their way.

If trans activists out there did not demand unquestioned access to everything they could listen to compromise. Such as - the boss making a management toilet available to the transitioner if staff are uncomfortable - then if they say no the fault lies with them, not with you,

I am transsexual and transitioned 50 years ago. I faced a world where it was not everyday news so strange to everyone. And accepted the directors toilet option when doing secretarial work in a factory to pay my way, This was post transition but pre surgery.

I trained as a teacher but began transition and so told the authority as I was teaching in schools by then. It was felt that parents might have concerns. After talking it through I gave up on my dream. I understood the concerns. I could not have both and transition was the immediate problemthat I had to resolve.

So I did office work to pay the bills and received a lower amount than I could have if deemed a man (as legally I still was this being 30 years before the Gender Recognition Act). But my transition was for good and bad and so I took the lower pay and noted this to the female staff where I was making up the wages and they started a campaign and the company paid everyone the same. Equal Pay was in the offing so I am not suggesting this was some big victory I created. Just that there is a better way to do this other than demand something because trans are special. Nobody is more special than anyone else .

Transsexuals have lived lives as I describe for many years before this new transgender madness arrived out of nowhere and if these transgender people approached life more patiently and less selfishly without the visible aggression they display then it might not be creating the problems they are.

Give and take works two ways. It is on them also to find a fair solution, JakeyRolling - not just you.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 29/04/2022 19:59

Hopefully your workplace will ensure that staff from the other protected characteristics get to write their thoughts about politics and their colleagues. I'm sure there'll be space made to reflect the politics of disability, race, religion, sex, pregnancy, age etc. If one group can slag off others with no consequences, so can we all Confused.

LK1972 · 29/04/2022 20:02

FOJN · 29/04/2022 19:40

I am thinking "am I wrong here? Am I just too ignorant to understand?"

I think we've all experienced the "am I missing something" feeling. It's hardly surprising when people who seem sane and logical in almost all other areas of life take to parroting the doctrine of gender religion. I think it's good to keep questioning things. I remain ready and willing to have my mind changed but every time the gender radicals try they just convince me even more that there is no substance to their arguments. I don't think you're wrong at all, the gender house is built on sand and the tide is rising.

It's taken me 2 years of reading to feel confident enough to start posting on this forum, as I felt I just didn't know enough, or was missing something.

2 years of trawling TRA opinions to find the glimmer of reason, unsuccessfully.

But I do keep hoping that I just don't know enough about it, and maybe, just maybe, there is good reason why men are in women's prisons, hospital wards, short lists, award and sports.

BTW, my woke teenagers all think I'm a bigot, but don't have any argument beyond 'be kind', and are entirely fact free in their discussion of the topic. Which seems to be the issue with the whole movement.

Jewel1968 · 29/04/2022 20:03

I think it's good to challenge yourself. Be open minded. My concerns are more about stereotyping and the reinforcement of them. I wish society was more relaxed about gender roles and then I suspect there would be far fewer people feeling they are in the wrong gender. I can understand how this society has created this and I feel sorry for all of us. I know one trans person and they are lovely and I hate to think of them as being upset.

I hear what you all say about changing rooms and I get it but I don't feel it as much as my frustration with gender stereotypes.

tabbycatstripy · 29/04/2022 20:04

lassupthebrew

I’m sorry you had to give up on your dream of teaching. That’s not how things should be.

NancyDrawed · 29/04/2022 20:15

I was talking about this social experiment with my teen today (can't remember how we got onto it, but it made me look it up)

We are herd animals in the end - it is easier to go along with the group than to go against it. But I also know that humans can't change sex and I know that making lifelong medical patients out of children working out where they fit is wrong, wrong, wrong.

I've said before and I'll no doubt say again - people who are trans hold a position in society different from those who are not. That is not to say that they should be treated badly, discriminated against or abused because of their trans status, but TWATW, TMATM. TW are NOT the same as women, TM are NOT the same as men. They are no better or lesser, but they are NOT the same.

RinklyRomaine · 29/04/2022 20:16

As pp say, if you don't have those moments, you're in danger of turning into LOJ or similar. Too little critical thought is a dangerous thing.

Are you on Twitter, op? If you have a strong stomach, go look at Nig Hekes thread from a couple of days ago. As much of it as you can stand, anyway. Then decide if 'they just want to pee' is the right side of history.

JakeyRolling · 29/04/2022 20:19

Do you have a link @RinklyRomaine? Only account with that name I can see only has 1 tweet, a RT of something from 2014

OP posts:
lassupthebrew · 29/04/2022 20:20

tabbycatstripy · 29/04/2022 20:04

lassupthebrew

I’m sorry you had to give up on your dream of teaching. That’s not how things should be.

Thank you, but I understood, as this was a new thing and nobody had yet worked through the cobsequences. It would probably not happen today like that. Which is progress. But I think the old way focused minds on priotrities as right now people seem to think changing sex is just like changing socks. No bog deal.

But transition for transsexuals is never really a choice. I had been seeing doctors for a decade by then and tried all sorts of things to resolve it first without transition.

But when that is the last resort option doctors advise then it has to be the priority. Other things should take a back seat until you are in a stable mental place.

It really worries me that people are out there claiming they have been trans since they were little. I was so I know it happens. But can then prioritise getting a career, marrying, having kids and involving others in their unresolved dysphoria and drag them into the transition.

That seems incredibly selfish to me. Your own health needs resolving first before you start involving others in whatever will happen later.

Oh, and a decade post op I did get to teach in a school - invited to do for a week of special classes to bring my new skills from the career I eventually pursued after transition. So patience paid off.

Nellodee · 29/04/2022 20:26

"It takes a great deal of bravery to stand up to our enemies, but just as much to stand up to our friends."