Clitoris

[Perfect28]

The correct and full terminology for female genitalia is not taught in school. The closest we get to it, as far as I am aware, is the now statutory conversation about FGM. Why is this, and why isn't this a bigger conversation?

For me there are wider discussions around consent that would support what some pp are saying about how relationships recognise pleasure.

Consent doesn't start within the sex Ed lessons, and it's not just about sex. it's starts from when children are very young and is for them around respecting each other's boundaries, recognising that they all have differing views in games they play and not forcing and coercing others into games they don't like, being able to have the voice that says, I don't like this. This is very hard to achieve in some settings, I know only too well, but it is more important than academic achievement at early stages. It's basic appropriate social interaction and learning to be assertive around boundaries- something girls in particular struggle with. Emotional regulation and emotional literacy is the other area that should be prioritised.

Unfortunately I feel the education system is rather fucked in that regard. Also, secondary don't know what primary has done around all that. And Far too much focus on academia from an early age, when other countries successfully don't start teaching it for a few years later.

If we get these messages consistently right, it doesn't need spelling out in the sex Ed sessions. I do fear that's an ideal that's hard to reach.

What does need addressing in sex Ed, somehow, are all the issues around porn.

What should be taught in schools versus elsewhere is surely a common debate? There’s definitely a place for 13/14 YO to
learn this stuff but agree with PP that during standard lessons doesn’t seem appropriate (or potentially particularly effective). Trouble is, that doesn’t solve the problem of where or who teaches it.

There’s a Netflix show called Big Mouth which is incredibly educational for teenagers about all the stuff. And there’s an entire episode about sexual pleasure for women. Should be mandatory watching for teenagers.

Clear reasons for separating the sexes for many aspects of this!!!

It's not taught in biology lessons at KS3 or 4 because we teach reproduction, not sex ed. There is a difference. Reproduction focuses on the internal genitalia for females rather than external.

I can't believe how many people are willfully misunderstanding the OP. She hasn't suggested that teachers must teach sexual pleasure to 13yr olds, merely that all parts of the female genitals should be shown on a diagram of the female genitals!!

The clitoris was shown on all diagrams in both my biology and PSHE lessons. There were no concerning conversations like those depicted upthread with someone yelling that their sister likes having hers licked (safeguarding report, anyone?). Just the teacher stating "this is the clitoris. It's a highly sensitive collection of nerve endings. It's job is to feel good." And we swiftly moved on to the parts more relevant to reproduction.

At what point do you learn it's there otherwise!?

In a similar vein, I tried to look up where my uterus sits in amongst my organs once. I wanted to know how big it is when there's no baby inside, how low down it sits and whether it's in front or behind my intestines etc. Couldn't find a single diagram. The cut-away diagrams are either get a man's body or a pregnant woman.
We do not teach enough female biology in any aspect of life and removing the clitoris from a factual diagram and conversation only perpetuates this.

This is an excellent post.
Sadly this important discussion at the moment appears to be led by those boundary free adults with a "kids must have access to porn. ( Proud Trust / school of sexuality etc ) and on the other hand people like Tatchell, over invested in talking to children about how to give and receive sexual pleasure.

While I recognise the systematic exclusion of understanding women's bodies. I'm not sure that mainstream education is the correct setting for teaching this. When you teach a class, you differentiate the material for differing knowledge, abilities, class dynamics etc. Where would you start with sexual pleasure?
There are some things that are not the responsibility of teachers - and this is one of them IMHO.

I think you have forgotten what high school kids can be like!

I think its position should definitely be taught, because otherwise, you're going to get students either thinking, I've got this bit, am I weird, is it a bad thing? Or they'll know what or is, and realise it was deliberately left out and wil then wonder about the accuracy of the rest of what they were told.

I think it would inevitably lead to questions about what is it for? You could just say it can help increase lubrication, which has already been mentioned as part of the reproductive act.

I don’t think many high schoolers talk about what their sisters enjoy. Grim.

Yes it’s awkward and teenagers are horrible but you mention it, get over it, move on. Now it’s normalised.

Think about when sex ed first became a thing. Horrendous? In many ways, yes. Would you get rid of it? Obviously not.

I've skipped the middle pages, but, surely it's on the diagram, and when someone asks what it does, you have a generic answer along the lines of "no-one's figured that out yet, although if you look at this diagram here (shows full extent of clitoris), we assume it must be for something"

There's no need to mention pleasure, because frankly, we don't know if that is its purpose. I'm sure they don't mention how particular bits of the penis might feel nice, so why mention why particular bits of a woman's anatomy do.

It should definitely be on the diagram though. If the head of a penis is labeled, then the clitoris should be.

They'll figure out what to do with it later for themselves, and at least it'll've been signposted for the boys.

No. I haven't. I left school 10yrs ago but my sibling was there until 2020. Do you think I've imagined the lessons?

Do we stop the "put a condom on this blue rubber model" lessons because of teenage jokes regarding penis sizes? No.

So why do you think we should erase the existence of a piece of female anatomy because of /potential/ teenage jokes?

No. I haven't. I left school 10yrs ago but my sibling was there until 2020. Do you think I've imagined the lessons?

Do we stop the "put a condom on this blue rubber model" lessons because of teenage jokes regarding penis sizes? No.

So why do you think we should erase the existence of a piece of female anatomy because of /potential/ teenage jokes?

Thats where the Family Sex Show ( or whatever it is called ) steps in. Singing happy songs about the clit etc. And masturbating animals. Cringe. But of course there's nothing wrong with learning the correct anatomy. Lots of people use Vagina when they mean Vulva for example.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31691374/

We do know what it's for.

But that isn't what the clitoris is for. It is what it currently does.

The clitoris is necessary for ovulation in species which do not have spontaneous ovulation. It is essential to reproduction in those species.

Some species like humans have evolved from species that do not have spontaneous ovulation. We retain the clitoris, albeit now in a physical position that would not assist in ovulation, in much the same way that we retain an appendix.

In terms of understanding biology as a subject, the clitoris isn't relevant at secondary school.

There is no issue with having the clitoris or labia on a diagram, but sexual pleasure isn't a topic we teach in schools.

Where should it be learned?

I agree totally with you OP. Nobody is saying teachers should give lessons on “rubbing techniques” (FFS). But it is important to give children factual information. I was even quite shocked that at KS1 my DD was given diagrams of male and female anatomy and everything was labelled except the clitoris, which was mysteriously absent! So for girls, an essential part of their anatomy is just kept from them like it’s somehow shameful and not to be known about? Not for boys though!!!

Why aren’t we just labelling the clitoris right from the outset? Boys get told the facts about their anatomy from the start and girls get coy stuff where their basic anatomical biology is covered up like we can’t acknowledge it exists.

We could give girls perfectly age-appropriate information no problem. KS1/2 - it’s a fold of skin above the urethra, and the part that would have developed in the womb into a penis if you were a boy, but didn’t because you are a girl. KS3 - it’s the equivalent to the penis in terms of female sexual pleasure.

For God’s sake, there is a sensible healthy way to talk to children and teenagers about sex that isn’t the Family Sex Show but also doesn’t pretend it’s 1950. Some posters seem to be unaware of this. Pretending to girls that part of their anatomy doesn’t exist because Miss might find it embarrassing to talk about in sex ed is frankly ridiculous. Equally, mentioning sexual pleasure with 11-14 year olds according to DfE statutory PSHE guidelines is not equivalent to some kind of perve license! Good grief some people’s common sense seems to have gone begging.

KS3 - it’s the equivalent to the penis in terms of female sexual pleasure.

if you don’t think the first (and instant) question would be ”how’s that work, Miss?” then you’re no more a teacher than the OP is.

I don’t think anyone, even those who have actually taught the entire sexual reproduction topic and not just read off some printout for a cover lesson, has disagreed with the clitoris being listed. We’re at odds on how far to go with the description/purpose to children.

Pretending to girls that part of their anatomy doesn’t exist because Miss might find it embarrassing to talk about in sex ed is frankly ridiculous

Again, no one has said that. We’ve disputed the detail of how far to go with it. Do you think someone who can talk about erections and lubricated vaginas to teenagers has a problem with saying the word clitoris? I think maybe your sense has gone begging.

Sockfluff that's entirely my point, there is no requirement for the clitoris to be mentioned at all in any context! Your posts have been patronising and mostly absurd.

@Perfect28 theres no requirement to mention several of the pleasure-centric parts of male genital anatomy either.

Just be honest that you’re off on a crusade here. Do you honestly think it’s never occurred to actual science teachers that the clitoris isn’t on the picture? One reason I don’t miss teaching is all the non-specialist self-appointed experts out there. If this is so important to you- angry not excited- then I assume you’ve contacted your MP and exam boards to get this changed? No?

Oh right you don't even teach any more. Thank goodness for that.

Where it should be learned depends on the beliefs and interests of the person learning.

Depending on the person, from their own body, from reading, from talking to friends, from family or within the context of a relationship.

I said that way back at the start of the thread, my dear. I’ve never been a safeguarding liability in my teaching career- tearing up the syllabus to do your own crazy cat lady version of sex ed in a lesson on puberty? It’s a good job you aren’t a teacher. I pity your DSL. And the children.

Maybe you are coming from at education from a different perspective to other people, OP? It seems a wider difference than the clitoris.

Biology classes are for learning about biology as a field. So what is taught is either about an important theory like evolution, a core component of biota or the scientific method.

PSE, PSHEE and similar are largely about teaching everyday information as a kind of safety net for children from less than ideal home backgrounds where the parents haven't been able to fulfil their role for one reason or another.