A simple way to explain to DH why he shouldn't* include pronouns on his email signature at work

[WookeyHole]

I really get so confused about the whole gender issue and each time I try and explain myself, I get tied up in knots. I've tried with good friends who've basically said I sound like a transphobe, which isn't my intention. I'm just not keen on women not having their own spaces.

Please can you give me a couple of sentences to explain to DH why I think it's a bad idea to include pronouns and the bigger picture it makes him a part of?

*obviously he's a grown man and can make his own mind up, but I'd like him to consider the other point of view to the Stonewall trans bandwagon he's been fed at work

[quote CallMeDaddy58]@DomesticatedZombie On certain occasions “have you emailed Barry” would be absolutely fine. However in a protracted conversation it sounds insane.

“Have you emailed Barry yet? Barry is quite keen to receive that information. I was talking to Barry about it this morning and Barry reiterated the importance of receiving it asap”.

Clearly using he/him after the initial “Barry” makes much more sense.[/quote]
'insane' - nice ableism you have there.

I think anyone listing their pronouns looks ridiculous. So how do we move forward from this?

The easiest way is to say that your are aware that it is a highly political statement to take any side on this issue, and you would rather not.

@Sodiit

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted. It's a small thing, takes no effort at all, and for those who feel supported by this I'd say it's well worth it. Maybe you could do an LGBTQ+awareness course?

Support who? Not gay men and lesbians.

People with GR certs are what 6.5k (I think I read that recently) in this country? So it’s really a T& (god help me I hate the word) Q awareness course you are suggesting. Why?

If invited to use my “preferred pronouns” at work I will say “don’t be so bloody ridiculous”

Perhaps spending less time twatting about with pronouns and more time actually working might gee up productivity

I won’t use pronouns because it’s implementing Self ID. Self ID removes a women’s right to say no to inappropriate male behaviour and is illegal in the UK.

I'm not that bothered about any of this, but what harm is it doing?'.

Male privilege in action.

I'd love to know why. Because my experience is that 99% of the pronouns I see on emails/bios match the sex of the person. And the other 1% are they/them. The trans people I work with don't have any in their signatures.

It's like 90% of people putting 'straight' in their bio with a few 'bi' and saying it's supporting gay people. How exactly?

Or people putting 'abled' there. How is that supporting people with disabilities?

This has always been my point - how on earth seeing that pronouns clearly match the sex of 99% of the people helps anyone feel more supported?!
I use the same comparison with straight/gay signatures.

What I don’t understand is why we have to do the slash thing. Like isn’t “she” enough by itself? Why is it she/her (or sometimes she/her/hers)? What else would be accompanying she? I’m not talking here about people who have multiple pronouns like “she/they,” I just don’t understand why the required format is “he/his.” I think it reveals how performative the whole thing is, like we need a grammar lesson in declension.

My sister works in a field with vulnerable clients and they make everyone announce their pronouns in client meetings etc., and she said everyone gets really confused and upset. The professional middle class people in the meeting have to do a whole thing where you introduce your pronouns, describe yourself (even though there are no visually impaired people in the meeting) and then they ask the client to do the same. And the man who’s homeless, dealing with serious mental breakdown etc. will be like “of course I’m a fucking man, what are you saying” when they ask for pronouns and then the middle class professional types get all huffy and lecture them on not being transphobic and ableist when they’re like “I can see you’re wearing a red sweater, why are you telling me.” In other words, this stuff doesn’t actually help people, it’s just signalling.

Like isn’t “she” enough by itself? Why is it she/her (or sometimes she/her/hers)

Because there are people (usually NB) who switch between plural and singular. E.g., they/her or he/they.

Same day he includes his star sign or religion as it has the same relevance

I don't include my pronouns on work emails because it is objectively disadvantageous to be identified as a woman at work.

I reminded my DH that being a woman at work still matters and being pressured to draw attention to that fact is not a good idea. By participating in the pronoun signature, he is putting pressure on women to make that statement as well, to draw attention to themselves and invite discrimination.

I already said “I’m not talking about she/they.” The general expected format is “they/them/theirs,” “she/her,” “he/his” whether or not you use mixed pronouns or neo pronouns. My point is, why can’t we just say “I use she pronouns.” When did we all have to say “I use she/her/hers” as if it would decline any other way. It’s pointless, and just another thing we’re supposed to do without questioning.

Like if you said “I go by she” would anyone then be like “can you pass she she’s handout.” As if suddenly we wouldn’t understand how to use her without it being included. I know it’s a small thing, but it’s silly.

I'd love to know why. Because my experience is that 99% of the pronouns I see on emails/bios match the sex of the person. And the other 1% are they/them. The trans people I work with don't have any in their signatures.

It's like 90% of people putting 'straight' in their bio with a few 'bi' and saying it's supporting gay people. How exactly?

Or people putting 'abled' there. How is that supporting people with disabilities?

Exactly. I suppose that when TRAs say that stating your pronouns is 'supportive of trans people', what they really mean that it's a way of proving that you believe TRA ideology, rather than that it actually helps real trans people in your workplace in any real or meaningful way.

This 100%.

Yes, this really gets me too!
It's like - do we also have to clarify how the third person is conjugated?

The logical thing would be to say 'I go by female/male/neutral' pronouns.

Adding preferred pronouns to your email signature / LinkedIn profile is ultimately saying that you support Lia Thomas for smashing women's national swimming records.

My workplace was taken over by a bigger, NHS based organisation and the new corporate overlords decided we should include pronouns in our email signature, if we felt comfortable doing so.
I don't, so I didn't. No one has asked. I often email people and don't know their sex because they have names I'm not familiar with or that could be either, it doesn't make any difference to our conversations.

It is most often used for neopronoun owners (people who are using very rare pronoun sets that are relatively rare in English or whatever language is being used). But limiting it to that is also problematic.

For example, if I need people to say "Please tell Serena pee will have to take per books back to the library perself as I'm not sure which ones are pers" but my friend Obi needs people to say "Please tell Obi pee will have to take pear books back to the library peaself as I'm not sure which ones are pears" then you can easily see how I would have to have my pronouns listed out as "pee/per/pers/perself" while pee would have pears listed out as "pee/pear/pears/peaself" or everyone will be confused and constantly risking being heard to use the wrong pronoun. Obvi!

BUT: the more popular - we shouldn't say "standard", as that might be normative - pronouns work on a similar principle. Even though we know "most" people who use she also use /her/hers/herself, it's just the right thing to do to write it all every time so that if there's anyone out their that uses say she/shear/shears/shearself, that person won't be singled out for shear vulnerable minority status.

So you are happy with compelling and controlling other people's speech? How very reactionary.

Why is it useful? How would it affect your work-related email conversations if someone thought you were a different gender to the one you think you are?

Maybe you could do with reading case law? The EAT’s decision in Maya Forstater's case last year made clear ‘gender critical’ views are protected under the religion and belief provisions in s.10 EqA, and an individual's lack of belief is to be protected as well, insofar as is reasonable possible.

Compelling others who don't believe in a nebulous gender identity to use preferred signatures in their emails is compelled speech, and could be considered harassment under the Equality Act, as well as showing disregard for others in the workplace with other beliefs & separate characteristics.

As Akua Reindorf notes in this ELA report:

"In the meantime, employers should perhaps start by considering whether their diversity and inclusion training adequately takes account of belief as a protected characteristic, and whether the definition of harassment in their policies is sufficiently nuanced to take account of the range of protected beliefs on sex and gender.

They should also think carefully about the extent to which their publicly expressed corporate values and their internal communications serve, in effect, to compel adherence on the part of their workers to one side of the debate or the other."

OP - I think the best advice I've seen on this, as well as all the good advice on this thread, is that it's a political position, and it's rude and impolite, as well could be considered a coercive tactic or harassment on the part of an employer to coerce employees to reveal such a personal aspect of their lives in their corporate emails.

I mean, there are 9 characteristics in the Equality Act, one of them being Religion.

I wouldn't put my email signature as:

Kind regards,
'Hateful Haberdashery,
Christian, Voted Brexit'

or: Hateful Habbers,
'Remainer, Muslim',

so why do I need to put pronouns?

I use preferred pronouns on my work email and have been told by a few people that when others do this, it makes them feel supported and accepted.

So some of your colleagues who believe in the gender ideology find it supportive that you state your pronouns? How about the people who don't belive in gender ideology? Do they not deserve to feel supported and accepted?