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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Not sure what to do about 'Women's Retreat'?

54 replies

Pebble21uk · 19/04/2022 11:13

Hello, new to posting on these boards but do read threads at times. I could do with a bit of (gentle) advice please as to how to handle my situation.

I've had a really tough time the last 2 years looking after other family members. As a treat they have contributed for me to go on a 'Women's Woodland Retreat' at a well known and upmarket Retreat Centre near me. It was somthing I said I would really like to do after reading about it last year.

The retreat centre runs a lot of different retreats. This one is run specifically for women, attendees sleep in individual bell tents in a small area within the grounds of the retreat centre. There is a compost loo and a shower in the courtyard of the main building.

I read the info several times and I may be mistaken, but I saw no mention of who could attend and who it was open to. I'm sure I would have noticed. I booked last year and paid my deposit ready for this June.
I looked at the info on it again the other day (same web page) and it now says 'This retreat is for all women (as self-intentified) aged 18 and above.

I have no issue with trans women being on the retreat - I would expect it to be open to them. What worries me is the 'self identified' wording. Surely this can mean that any man can self-id as a way of getting into a women only space and the retreat centre can't say no!?

I emailed the center last week asking if the wording had been changed, but have heard nothing back from them.
I wanted to go to a safe, women's space. I am lesbian and it just feels more comfortable for me - especially as this is in tents and not in a building where you can shut yourself away in your room.

I'm thinking I'm going to cancel - I don't want to worry about something that should be a treat. And this isnn't a cheap thing - especially at the moment, the cost is a big deal for me and for my family.

Am I over-thinking this?

OP posts:
tabbycatstripy · 19/04/2022 11:14

No. I might or might not want to go to a women-only retreat, but I wouldn’t pay for one and then go to a mixed sex retreat.

Lovelyricepudding · 19/04/2022 11:25

I have no issue with trans women being on the retreat - I would expect it to be open to them. What worries me is the 'self identified' wording. Surely this can mean that any man can self-id as a way of getting into a women only space and the retreat centre can't say no!?

Don't worry OP, any man who self ID's as a woman is a transwoman. After all that is the only way you can be a transwoman - a man who identifies as a woman. There is no medical test or treatment necessary to qualify. Transwomen do not need to present any differently from most other men either. And it would be rude to ask them.

Apollo441 · 19/04/2022 11:29

Could you explain to us your understanding of the difference between a transwoman and a self identified woman? They are the same thing surely? Unless you think transwomen have had surgery (90% don't).

DomesticatedZombie · 19/04/2022 11:39

Sorry to hear you've had a tough time. And I'm sorry that you're worrying about this retreat.

I agree with tabby; if it's advertised as women-only but admits men it's unfair and misleading.

I cancelled a trip a while ago because I may have had to share with a 'non-binary' person and I wasn't willing to share a room with a male. (I have no idea of the sex of the person).

Whingasaurus · 19/04/2022 11:42

Do you mean a transwoman with a GRC rather than a self id'ed only 'transwoman' if so I maybe, possibly could agree with you but sadly in these tines that is a distinction we can't make. Any transwoman would change the dynamic and it wouldn't be a woman only retreat anymore so I'd really examine how you feel and what you'd like and remove your 'be kind' glasses you're allowed to want a woman only space.

Helleofabore · 19/04/2022 11:48

I think OP, you need to work out for yourself what your comfort level is.

You say you have no issue about being at a women's retreat with transwomen. As others have mentioned, what is a transwoman? Why is it different to you if how far along their 'transition' is?

Is a transitioned male = a transitioned male in any degree?

Or have you set up some parameter in your mind for acceptable degree of transition?

I am very sorry to hear that the retreat has now changed the wording. I would expect that if that is the case, and you now asked for a refund, they would need to do this as they have changed this retreat to a mixed sex retreat.

SickAndTiredAgain · 19/04/2022 11:51

Like PPs, I’m also not clear on what the difference is, in your opinion, between a transwoman (which you’d be fine with), and a self-identified transwoman (which you wouldn’t be fine with?).

Is it medical (surgical?) transition?

Original poster
Pebble21uk · 19/04/2022 11:53

I was thinking more from the POV of men who live as men and usually identify as men, but will self-id as a woman for the specific reason of getting into women only spaces. If it's advertised as such online then I worry that there are men (who would usually id as men) who will use the wording to deliberatly access such a space.

Please understand this is the first time I've been in this situation and I'm still finding my way. You may feel that is showing my ignorance and I should be more aware already, but I am an older lesbian who lives in a rural area and hasn't had to deal with this in any personal sense before. Thanks for the replies.

OP posts:
rumred · 19/04/2022 11:57

It's a tricky one. I'm fine with men who've physically transitioned, absolutely not with the others.
Are there any reviews you can read to gauge if men going is a problem or not ?

porridgecake · 19/04/2022 12:01

I believe your fears and doubts are perfectly reasonable. In your situation I would cancel the retreat and consider booking a relaxing break at a really nice country hotel with a friend or a few friends that you know and trust. If you can book an individual massage or similar that would be a nice treat. I don't like spa weekends as they can be a bit noisy and crowded, but a midweek break somewhere nice and quiet might suit you.

IcakethereforeIam · 19/04/2022 12:03

You've hit on one of the reasons why many people have problems with self id. If a space is open to any man who says he's a woman, then it's open to every man..

MiladyBerserko · 19/04/2022 12:04

Welcome to Self ID. Men are women if they say they are. End of.

If you complain, or ask questions, you are a bigot. End of.

123Shush · 19/04/2022 12:06

I knew what you meant OP, not sure if other posters are being goady or not? There is no need to apologise to anyone. Sounds like men who identify as women as the mood takes them would be welcome to the retreat, but I would be surprised if any do book it. If you feel unsure and don’t receive clarity from the venue then cancel and hopefully you’ll find something else that will be enjoyable to do.

Calculathor · 19/04/2022 12:08

If this is a recent change to the website, you should be able to get a full refund. Write to them to check this before cancelling.
Men are not legally classified as women if they don't have a GRC. You were told that it was a women's retreat.

Lovelyricepudding · 19/04/2022 12:09

Look up Autogynaephilia.

Calculathor · 19/04/2022 12:09

Unfortunately, there may be a higher risk of men being on the retreat just BECAUSE it's advertised as a women's retreat.

Original poster
Pebble21uk · 19/04/2022 12:12

Men are not legally classified as women if they don't have a GRC. You were told that it was a women's retret

Thank you for confirming that. I wasn't sure of my legal standing if I did decide to cancel and wanted a full refund of my deposit (which they don't usually give!)

OP posts:
Original poster
Pebble21uk · 19/04/2022 12:13

That was my fear @Calculathor

OP posts:
Lovelyricepudding · 19/04/2022 12:14

Why do you think some men are acceptable but not others? What about a man changes when he declares he is a transwomen that makes him more acceptable on a women's retreat than other men?

SickAndTiredAgain · 19/04/2022 12:14

@123Shush

I knew what you meant OP, not sure if other posters are being goady or not? There is no need to apologise to anyone. Sounds like men who identify as women as the mood takes them would be welcome to the retreat, but I would be surprised if any do book it. If you feel unsure and don’t receive clarity from the venue then cancel and hopefully you’ll find something else that will be enjoyable to do.
I wasn’t being goady, I knew what she meant in terms of worrying that men may simply say they’re women in order to attend. What I didn’t understand was how was she, as a guest at the retreat, distinguishing the men doing this from the transwomen she has no issue with.
Neverreturntoathread · 19/04/2022 12:19

I wouldn’t overthink this. You’re buying the retreat as a treat for yourself and you want to be in a female only space. It’s fine, there are zillions of male-only spaces. This retreat is clearly open to non-females.

I’d either withdraw from the retreat and ask for a refund, or phone them and say ‘look obviously you can offer sell tickets to whom you like, but I bought a ticket on the basis thet this is a female only retreat and I’m not looking for retrest that includes biological makes, so can you please clarify which this id as the advertising seems to have changed and if it is now open to non-females I will need a refund?’

wanttofeelbetter1 · 19/04/2022 12:34

Has anyone else had a reoccurrence of bad mental health after feeling better for years?

I've been on 50mg sertraline for the past 6 years following a sort of mental breakdown following an abusive relationship. Life has had ups and downs but I've coped ok.

Last 4 weeks I've felt my depression come back and anxiety heighten.
It's now got to the point that I don't even want to get out of bed, I'm having very dark thoughts and feel completely hopeless.

I've had a few stresses in my life but usually I can handle them.
I called the dr today to see if I can increase my dose. I spent 55 minutes in a queue to be told there's no appointments.
I give up! I just want to be normal again.

JollyHippo · 19/04/2022 12:35

I agree with @Neverreturntoathread

I went to a women only retreat and got a lot out of it 5 years ago. Thoroughly enjoyed!

Two years later attended same retreat, same place. We got an email beforehand to confirm that a transwoman was attending, and was that OK with everybody.
A couple dropped out I believe, I was still of the be kind mindset and went along. (It wasn't residential) Honestly, it's what peaked me. I didn't feel in danger at any point, but the whole focus appeared to be around this person and she really had no clue about the lives of women. It felt totally inappropriate. My then late-teenage daughter tried to convince me that the transwoman needed to be at the retreat to learn how to be a woman.
I'd say there could be TW friendly retreats but there need to be women only ones too.
Honestly, we were all totally sidelined, anything we said was run by the TW to see how she felt about it, and certain topics (ie menopause) were just not discussed because it felt too awkward.
I don't know that the TW was a full on TRA by any means, but clearly enjoyed the attention. Only one not dressed in jeans and comfy shoes too.

I would not go to one again unless it was confirmed to be single sex.

Crcohetmonster · 19/04/2022 12:35

If you say you are happy for transwomen to be there then I cannot see what the problem is. If you are happy going to a mixed sex retreat, then surely it shouldn’t matter what the participants identify as.

LK1972 · 19/04/2022 12:44

@wanttofeelbetter1

Has anyone else had a reoccurrence of bad mental health after feeling better for years?

I've been on 50mg sertraline for the past 6 years following a sort of mental breakdown following an abusive relationship. Life has had ups and downs but I've coped ok.

Last 4 weeks I've felt my depression come back and anxiety heighten.
It's now got to the point that I don't even want to get out of bed, I'm having very dark thoughts and feel completely hopeless.

I've had a few stresses in my life but usually I can handle them.
I called the dr today to see if I can increase my dose. I spent 55 minutes in a queue to be told there's no appointments.
I give up! I just want to be normal again.

Hi, you're on the wrong thread, just wanted to alert you so you could repost in the thread you'll get help, hopefully Thanks
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