Not sure what to do about 'Women's Retreat'?

[Pebble21uk]

Hello, new to posting on these boards but do read threads at times. I could do with a bit of (gentle) advice please as to how to handle my situation.

I've had a really tough time the last 2 years looking after other family members. As a treat they have contributed for me to go on a 'Women's Woodland Retreat' at a well known and upmarket Retreat Centre near me. It was somthing I said I would really like to do after reading about it last year.

The retreat centre runs a lot of different retreats. This one is run specifically for women, attendees sleep in individual bell tents in a small area within the grounds of the retreat centre. There is a compost loo and a shower in the courtyard of the main building.

I read the info several times and I may be mistaken, but I saw no mention of who could attend and who it was open to. I'm sure I would have noticed. I booked last year and paid my deposit ready for this June.
I looked at the info on it again the other day (same web page) and it now says 'This retreat is for all women (as self-intentified) aged 18 and above.

I have no issue with trans women being on the retreat - I would expect it to be open to them. What worries me is the 'self identified' wording. Surely this can mean that any man can self-id as a way of getting into a women only space and the retreat centre can't say no!?

I emailed the center last week asking if the wording had been changed, but have heard nothing back from them.
I wanted to go to a safe, women's space. I am lesbian and it just feels more comfortable for me - especially as this is in tents and not in a building where you can shut yourself away in your room.

I'm thinking I'm going to cancel - I don't want to worry about something that should be a treat. And this isnn't a cheap thing - especially at the moment, the cost is a big deal for me and for my family.

Am I over-thinking this?

They have made a significant change to the terms and conditions since you made your booking; so they should refund your money and make it clear if its single gender and mixed sex.

Because it involves sleeping accomodation, it overrides the Gender Recognition Act. It is legal for the retreat to be single sex, and its reasonable for you to expect the sleeping arrangements to be single sex.

That's really interesting @JollyHippo - thank you for sharing your own experience.

I fully appreciate I have a lot to think about in the wider sense. And you are right @SickAndTiredAgain. This is why I asked for advice and opinions... I need to understand the whole situation a lot better to be able to make my own informed decisions. Surely this is a forum to help with that.

I really appreciate those who have been open and given me their thoughts and opinions. Those who have been goady... I don't really see how that helps, supports or educates other women!

I have messaged the retreat centre again and will take it from there. My inclination is to now cancel. Thanks for your help.

@LK1972 thank you

Posters may seem goady but that is because we have no patience for 'be kind'. I was being genuine when asking how you think transwomen differ from other men to make them more acceptable? They may present like other men, they have the same rate of offending as other men (although disproportionately more are sex offenders), they have grown up with the same male privilege, they have no more idea what it actually is to be a woman than other men. The only difference I can see is the wish to disregard women's need for single sex spaces, or to recognise that women have different experience of life to men.

I know some transgender men do recognise they are not women and respect women's spaces, but they don't attend women's retreats.

@JollyHippo

My then late-teenage daughter tried to convince me that the transwoman needed to be at the retreat to learn how to be a woman

What is she saying now? Her comment just shows how indoctrinated women still are into taking care of absolutely everyone, even if it means compromising their dignity and safety. It's not women's bloody job to affirm or validate other people's feelings or identity.

Or to use their own needed retreat time to therapise a male person.

OP - these business will only start learning what women want when they start losing money. I think it was a good thing that they let attendees know though beforehand that is was not going to be single-sex, as some of those attendees might have past trauma which would prevent them from feeling comfortable in this situation.

I think it's a good thing to have diversity in business and social settings - nothing wrong with mixed sex groups or groups that include transwomen, but unfortunately it seems to come at the cost of single-sex groups for women. Women deserve those groups and need them, but I think many organisers are very afraid of making events single-sex now because of the abuse they might get.

@Artichokeleaves

Or to use their own needed retreat time to therapise a male person.

@Artichokeleaves Yes - I feel exasperated when women fawn like this....like for fuck's sake!!

@rumred

It's a tricky one. I'm fine with men who've physically transitioned, absolutely not with the others. Are there any reviews you can read to gauge if men going is a problem or not ?

Hardly any men physically transition, if you mean having their tackle lopped off.

I hope I wasn't being goady. If you cancel this holiday, I hope you can find a better one that suits you.

[quote EarthSight]@JollyHippo

My then late-teenage daughter tried to convince me that the transwoman needed to be at the retreat to learn how to be a woman

What is she saying now? Her comment just shows how indoctrinated women still are into taking care of absolutely everyone, even if it means compromising their dignity and safety. It's not women's bloody job to affirm or validate other people's feelings or identity.[/quote]
She's coming around to my way of thinking, but slowly.

@IcakethereforeIam

You've hit on one of the reasons why many people have problems with self id. If a space is open to any man who says he's a woman, then it's open to every man..

This is exactly it. Self-ID means that every man who wants to intrude in women's places can do so. And it's pretty obvious what sort of men are most likely to take advantage of this new privilege.

If you feel ok with a mixed sex experience then go for it, but I believe you would value women’s company more. As a lesbian however, you may be seen as particularly special prey by a certain ,increasingly common type of TW who also identify as lesbian. Why would you possibly want that? I hope you get your money back. Many organisations are now succumbing to the belief that there won't be problems in catering for all comers, and won’t actually deal with the possibility, saying they will only look at the policy if problems occur.

@IcakethereforeIam

You've hit on one of the reasons why many people have problems with self id. If a space is open to any man who says he's a woman, then it's open to every man..

Exactly this.

I wasn't trying to be goady I was trying to understand and help I hope it didn't come over as goady. I started in the same place as the OP and have had to really examine my belief system to arrive where I am now. it's a very difficult conversation to have and to stay in Mumsnet guidelines

I would ask outright of they accept biological men who self identify as women. If yes then they have clearly mis-sold the retreat as they advertised it as women only. In law women means female (defined in equality act and I believe the recent GC cases have confirmed this) so well within your rights to get your money back. If they're funny about returning the deposit I think I'd threaten to report them to trading standards

Small claims court might be more effective.

@Monitaurus

If you feel ok with a mixed sex experience then go for it, but I believe you would value women’s company more. As a lesbian however, you may be seen as particularly special prey by a certain ,increasingly common type of TW who also identify as lesbian. Why would you possibly want that? I hope you get your money back. Many organisations are now succumbing to the belief that there won't be problems in catering for all comers, and won’t actually deal with the possibility, saying they will only look at the policy if problems occur.

And not wanting to be the person the problems happen to, and to have to deal with not only the fall out of the problems but the utter hell of having to deal with a panicking, backtracking, blaming, squirming, that didn't happen and if it did it wasn't that bad etc organisation, and all the police and legal hell it would entail?

No. No thank you. Not being a masochist or out of my mind, I won't be signing up for that.

On a practical level, OP, if they’ve changed the language since you booked there’s a good chance it is the result of some wanker complaining and it is correspondingly likely that said wanker will be present at the retreat complaining about everything else that doesn’t center them.

I think your fears are perfectly reasonable but I also think you could probably chance it and it be fine and only full of females. The likelihood of a recently self ID’d male paying to go on this women’s retreat for nefarious reasons is extremely low, and if that does happen then you can ask for a refund then? I am gender critical but I the situation you describe is unlikely to transpire.

I would not camp at a mixed sex retreat. I wouldn’t feel safe sleeping at night.

Thanks for all the advice. I know virtually all responses have been genuinely trying to help and I really appreciate that. I know I have a lot to learn and being able to ask those with more knowledge than me and not feel attacked or shut down as someone new here is important - so thank you.

I have now heard back from the retreat centre. They have confirmed that the wording has been changed since I booked the retreat. They also attached a copy of their 'Gender Identity Statement' which specifically says:

'...we use an inclusive definition of male and female (man and women) and we welcome trans men and women, genderqueer men and women, and non-binary people who are male or female-identified.'

Unfortunately this does nothing to a allay my concerns and I will be cancelling. The non-binary and genderqueer (which I'm not even sure of the meaning??) seems beyond the scope of a women's retreat to me.

They have said in the email they would be happy to refund my deposit if I decide to cancel, so I will get my money back. They also did admit that this is new territory for them and they are open to suggestions for a better use of inclusive language on their website. I will be replying to them with my concerns and reasons for cancelling. I feel if it is to be so inclusive, then rather than the wording changed, the title of the retreat needs to be changed.

I think if this is a new direction for them in terms of inclusivity they may find I am not the only one wanting to question if it is any longer a women's retreat.

It's a shame - I've been looking forward to it since I booked in December. I just wanted a safe space with fellow women in beautiful surroundings where I could properly relax after a very shitty couple of years! I guess I'm quite naive!

Thank you again...this thread has been really helpful.

Not a retreat as such but if you want a space away from men this is www.hortonwhc.org.uk/ one

OP

You are quite right. That is now very definitely a mixed sex event. Without a doubt.

As you say you are not comfortable with it (do people get own accommodation, by the way?) then it is a real shame as you were looking forward to it. But best you know and make an informed decision.

I hope you find somewhere else though.