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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Telegraph: Highgate School tells pupils "Modern feminism is ‘racist’ and only focuses on ‘straight, white, middle-class women’"

112 replies

ResisterRex · 18/04/2022 17:32

It has emerged that Highgate School held a forum on anti-sexism, in which pupils were told:

  • feminism only focuses on white, middle-class women
  • to assess how privileged they are
  • that others are worse off - especially trans victims
  • that LGTBQ+ are more likely to be victims of child sexual abuse.

The forum was held to respond to the fact it was featured in Everyone's Invited. It seems that their response has been to ignore what was said about the school and what girls experienced, and tell them they’re not the real victims. Private school or not, parents decide where their kids go to school. Children don’t make those choices.

Anyone know where evidence is for the line about LGBTQ+ being more likely to be victims of CSA is from?

The school’s response was ill-informed, for example the “case by case” line which is wrong as per the EHRC guidance:

“We know that girls and women are disproportionately affected by sexual harassment and violence and LGBTQ+ people are more likely to experience child sexual abuse and less likely to report sexual abuse than their peers.
“If or where tensions exist or are perceived to exist between two or more protected characteristics under the Equality Act (2010), we will do everything that we can - on a case-by-case basis - to ensure that safeguarding every child in our care remains at the heart of what we do here.
“We continue to follow our safeguarding procedures, offer support to all of our pupils, and be led by the guidance of the DfE, local authorities and the police, where applicable. We remain committed to working in close and transparent partnership with our pupils, their parents and carers, staff, and alumni.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/04/18/modern-feminism-racist-focuses-straight-white-middle-class-women//_

This whole thing has echoes of this thread:

The word 'woman' is misogynistic, racist and transphobic, apparently.
http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4532660-The-word-woman-is-misogynistic-racist-and-transphobic-apparentlyy_

OP posts:
LittleWhingingWoman · 18/04/2022 17:58

Am also what we've been seeing recently in terms of the pushing of the GC women are white racists narrative. Oh and the GC women are against gay marriage. And GC women are Trumpladies. Along with India Willoughby accusing women of being shoulder to shoulder with Putin and Trump.

It the new old TRA tactic with extra burger sauce. Anything to throw shade on the turning tide.

tabbycatstripy · 18/04/2022 18:02

Do people pay to have their girls listen to this shit?

ExMachinaDeus · 18/04/2022 18:09

Historically, the school is wrong.

There were women of colour and working-class women (and women who were both) at the absolute centre of the suffragette movement, for example.

I am sick of these lies being told about feminists

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 18/04/2022 18:12

Seems to be quite the theme this weekend.

I'm so sad that schools are promoting an anti-woman agenda that serves to facilitate their lack of action against sexual assault and rape in schools and other educational facilities.

They're seeking to highlight the hollow core of Everyone's Invited because it plainly does not include acting for the interest of women and girls when they're driving wedges.

MarshmallowSwede · 18/04/2022 18:17

So the women of colour who are feminists? What about them? How do they explain them?

Helleofabore · 18/04/2022 18:29

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Seems to be quite the theme this weekend.

I'm so sad that schools are promoting an anti-woman agenda that serves to facilitate their lack of action against sexual assault and rape in schools and other educational facilities.

They're seeking to highlight the hollow core of Everyone's Invited because it plainly does not include acting for the interest of women and girls when they're driving wedges.

It does indeed!
WhiteFire · 18/04/2022 18:33

CSA and LGBT+ is a bit chicken and egg. It is infuriating that this is being used in the way that it is rather than people engaging their brain and considering if the trans identify is a result of the CSA.

zanahoria · 18/04/2022 18:52

"Do people pay to have their girls listen to this shit?"

Twenty two grand a year apparently

zanahoria · 18/04/2022 18:55

Since when have private schools been into all this equality stuff?

I thought gaining privilege was whole point of a private education so why are they trying to guilt trip the kids?

NumberTheory · 18/04/2022 18:58

There may also be an issue with CSA and gay teens experimenting in more adult environments than their straight peers tend to. Vulnerable teens tend to be sexually exploited more than average. LGBTQ+ teens are vulnerable and a lot of LGBTQ+ organizations seem to be unaware of the need for safeguarding to be vigilant. We even see run of the mill children's organizations throwing safeguarding measures out of the window in order to “accommodate” LGBTQ+ kids.

ResisterRex · 18/04/2022 18:58

Certainly it could be argued that interventions as children, which lead to infertility and lack of capacity to orgasm as an adult, is child sexual abuse. But I'm not sure that's what these people mean.

I've not seen any data to say that LGBTQ+ (their term) children are more likely to be victims.

OP posts:
apricotlane · 18/04/2022 19:08

Progress yourselves off a cliff.

FemaleAndLearning · 18/04/2022 19:21

Ofsted produced a report on he Everyone's Invited disclosure website. Apparently private schools were disproportionally mentioned. Ofsted made recommendations, which don't seem to have been followed at your school. This site comments on the Ofsted report so you will probably want to go to the source. I can't see anything about LGBT but this may be in the full tepirt. Compare it to the information given at school and ask what the hell!
oursaferschools.co.uk/2021/06/17/everyones-invited-ofsted-update/

I thought Safe Schools Alliance did something on this but couldn't find it on their website though they do have information on safeguarding. I'm pretty surely telling white girls they are privledged won't stop abuse. Also think of Rochdale, all white girls.
Factsheet on sexism may help you frame arguments
safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/

oliviastwisted · 18/04/2022 19:22

That is so mad how this same theme is coming up again and again and again and again this week. Where has this anti feminist agenda come from?

DdraigGoch · 18/04/2022 20:02

@ResisterRex

Certainly it could be argued that interventions as children, which lead to infertility and lack of capacity to orgasm as an adult, is child sexual abuse. But I'm not sure that's what these people mean.

I've not seen any data to say that LGBTQ+ (their term) children are more likely to be victims.

Leaving aside LGB kids (as they have little crossover with the T kids), there certainly appears to be a trend of female children attempting to identify their way out of past trauma. Sadly the response from professionals often seems to be to just embrace the new "identity" instead of providing counselling to help them come to terms with their past. This trend has been related on these boards though only in terms of anecdotes from parents and teachers who've noticed which children seem more susceptible to this (past trauma, autistic girls etc.). Studies seem to be thin on the ground which is a tragic consequence of never being allowed to question a trend
ResisterRex · 18/04/2022 20:15

I see what you mean Ddraig. The only thing is that we can't leave out the L as Cass stated the below, which also includes young males:

"The complex interaction between sexuality and gender identity, and societal responses to both; for example, we have heard from young lesbians who felt pressured to identify as transgender male, and conversely transgender males who felt pressured to come out as gay rather than transgender. We have also heard from adults who identified as transgender through childhood, and then reverted to their birth-registered gender in teen years."

But I'm not convinced that even if it could be weighted, there is evidence to say that "LGBTQ+ children" are more likely to be CSA victims. Though trauma does seem to be unexplored or less well documented as per Cass.

I do think it's pretty low to tell a group of girls they're privileged actually, and not really the victims here. Which seems to be the message from this school to its girls.

OP posts:
NecessaryScene · 18/04/2022 20:16

Historically, the school is wrong.

There were women of colour and working-class women (and women who were both) at the absolute centre of the suffragette movement, for example.

But they said they were talking about modern feminism.

Nevertheless, to pick up from your comment, I have heard similar stuff apparently based on some sort of specifically American history of suffrage? Apparently what you were saying was less the case there? (Interested to know if this is actually true.)

Mind you, given that nonsensical premise, you can do the same in reverse.

If the female suffrage movement was racist, because it concentrated on white women, then the movement to end slavery was sexist, because it concentrated on black men. Stalemate.

dropthevipers · 18/04/2022 20:23

I suppose another way of looking at garbage like this is to think that the more sunlight that exposes this fucking snake oil the more desperate the TRA's become, hence the more batshit their arguments (such as they are) need to be. Tide is well and truly turning.

IvyTwines · 18/04/2022 20:27

Seeing some comments about school pupil's attitudes on here this week and hearing a female guest discussing single sex spaces for males on the radio last night, it's really coming across that girls and young women are being fed the line that having personal boundaries, or wanting single sex spaces, or being attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex exclusively, is a form of 'segregation' and 'discrimination' akin to 20th century US-style racism.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 18/04/2022 20:45

@IvyTwines

Seeing some comments about school pupil's attitudes on here this week and hearing a female guest discussing single sex spaces for males on the radio last night, it's really coming across that girls and young women are being fed the line that having personal boundaries, or wanting single sex spaces, or being attracted to the same sex or the opposite sex exclusively, is a form of 'segregation' and 'discrimination' akin to 20th century US-style racism.
Forced teaming and purposeful confusion are powerful forces.
Lovelyricepudding · 18/04/2022 20:58

So this is in response to a website where their pupils revealed they were victims of abuse at school and the school's response is to tell abuse victims they should think themselves lucky because other's are worse off?

nepeta · 18/04/2022 21:04

It has emerged that Highgate School held a forum on anti-sexism, in which pupils were told:

1.- feminism only focuses on white, middle-class women

  1. - to assess how privileged they are
  2. - that others are worse off - especially trans victims
  3. - that LGTBQ+ are more likely to be victims of child sexual abuse.
  1. Feminism focuses on women and girls. It should focus on ALL women and girls, though it has fallen short of that, and corrections are salutary and important, because feminism can always do better in that respect.

Still, many of the legal changes feminists have achieved over time ultimately benefited many more women and girls than those who are white and middle-class. The suffrage is an obvious example, and so are changes which improved women's pensions and their position in divorce and child custody. But as I said, there is always room to do better, and the same actually applies to all the other social justice movements which are rarely taken to task in quite the same manner.

Also worth remembering that there many feminist organisations which have always focused on the plight of poor women or the plight of women who belong to ethnic or racial minorities or the plight of women in all the different countries of the world and so on. Many of these are run by women who are not white and may not be middle-class, either.

Sometimes that work is not highlighted enough, perhaps, and so the critics can ignore it. I have given to many existing organisations who do good work in Africa or in Afghanistan, say, and they are explicitly feminist ones.

  1. It's always good for everyone to contemplate their privilege, certainly, in the sense that we may not know how it feels to walk in someone else's shoes. I recommend that especially for those of us who are more fortunate in various ways, but really for everyone. That's how empathy is created.

But when I read about 'cishet' privilege, I wonder if people using that term understand that they are saying that over ninety percent of all people are now privileged?

The old way of focusing on those who are not privileged made more sense to me than making statements which turn almost the whole world into that privileged group. (If your goal is to make more people support your movement, that is).

  1. We truly need good data on transgender individuals. They come from all types of backgrounds, some from very affluent and white ones, so to what extent they are suffering might vary, though some dosuffer greatly.

I'm not discounting the pain of gender dysphoria, for instance, but neither am I certain if we should use this idea for deciding on whether women should have their own justice movements.

Unless we do it with everything? So that we focus all our efforts on finding the worst off individuals in this world and then work on only the improvement of the lot of that group?

I believe the real message here is that women's rights don't matter because other rights matter more?

  1. I have tried to find good statistics on this. The difficulty is that many of the studies on LGBTetc are done within that community and do not include people who don't qualify for the letters. This means that the questions asked in the surveys and the way abuse is defined might not be the ones asked in surveys where people are mostlynot LGBT. That makes it hard to compare the data. Please someone, do good surveys on these questions.
ScrollingLeaves · 18/04/2022 21:20

@WhiteFire

CSA and LGBT+ is a bit chicken and egg. It is infuriating that this is being used in the way that it is rather than people engaging their brain and considering if the trans identify is a result of the CSA.

You are making a very good point: child sexual abuse can lead to someone wanting to change their gender identity. Their dysphoria can be a symptom of the earlier trauma.

But also, a trans identifying teen can be subject to grooming by older trans women on on line forums, or in real life groups (according to one detransitioner whose interview I saw on mumsnet, but I cannot remember the link.)

OhSister · 18/04/2022 21:29

The whole 'feminism is racist' trope has huge traction in the States, where it has become part of the woke dogma to smear the memories of such heroines as Susan B. Anthony as "white feminist racists".

Back in reality, Susan B. Anthony was an ardent supporter of Black liberation and enfranchisement. She was an active abolitionist campaigner and a friend and ally of Frederick Douglass.

Douglass, for his part, also supported women's suffrage. But his primary concern was the ending of slavery and the rights of Black Americans.

So in 1867 when slavery had only just been outlawed and the political scenario emerged where there appeared to be an opportunity to extend voting rights to free Black men, Anthony and Douglass - who both supported the enfranchisement of Women and of Blacks, but each of whose life's work was devoted to the struggles of the group to which s/he belonged - took different stances.

Douglass argued that Black survival depended on the enfranchisement of Black people, and that pursuing piecemeal progress where it had political support - i.e. seeking a constitutional amendment which extended voting rights only to Black men - was preferable to seeking (at that political moment) to extend suffrage to both Blacks and Women, and risk failure as that aim had less support. He rationalised that white women had 'representatives' in the form of their male family members, who they could appeal to to vote in their interests, and that therefore their need was not as great as that of the Black man.

Anthony - who had campaigned alongside Douglass many times during their 40 years of friendship, for equal rights for Blacks and for equal rights for Women - rejected this rationale and declined to campaign for the 15th Amendment, on the basis of her view that while there was a political will to expand voting rights, the campaign should be arguing to expand those rights to all adult Americans, irrespective of race, color, or sex. She feared that if women were left out of this opportunity, there would be no further expansion of voting rights for generations.

She was right about that. The amendment passed and Black men gained the legal right to vote (though as we all know, in practice this was not respected, particularly in the South) in 1870; black women and indeed all women had no such right until 1920, 50 years later and 14 years after Susan B. Anthony's death.

For about a decade now it has been fashionable for virtue signalling identitarians to smear Susan B. Anthony by calling her a racist who was "against" Black men getting the right to vote, despite the very, very clear record that her criticism of the 15th Amendement was entirely based on who was left out of it, not who was included in it. She was the first feminist icon I saw entitled young people (many of them, to their shame, young women with not a shred of gratitude for what SBA and her like did for them) treat in this way, in the form of social media backlash against the viral image of women leaving their 'I voted' stickers on her gravestone during the 2008 primaries, when Hillary Clinton ran against Barack Obama for the Dems nomination.

You won't see many mentions of SBA on social media now without a slew of comments underneath from wokesters rushing to point out how 'problematic' she is.

Funnily enough I have never seen (nor would I ever want to see) Frederick Douglass dismissed, cancelled, or painted as 'problematic' on the basis of sexism, nor his pragmatic approach to piecemeal progress framed as his having been "against women's suffrage" (he was not).

It's only women's heroes who have to have proven they understand that their own liberation is secondary to that of every other group, always.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 18/04/2022 21:34

feminism only focuses on white, middle-class women

Are they doing anything to support marginalised women and working class women, other than telling sexually abused girls that they're privileged?

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