Article on AGP by Lorelei

[TinselAngel]

This is a really excellent article, in which AGP males, in their own words, describe much of the behaviour outlined in the trans widows threads over the last 5 years.

Many people don't believe trans widows, maybe they'll believe the men themselves? (nb Mods this article is based on source material old enough that the men in it did not identify as women as far as I'm aware)

loreleihatpin.substack.com/p/autogynephilia?s=r

Sadly I did @Absurdle - I guess I was asking in a rhetorical way.

So if a woman is literally 'nothing more than a vulva between the thighs', how do sufferers of AGP who think this way deal with women they encounter in the world? Apart from the wives who may be suffering as trans widows, what about the mothers, sisters, daughters, coworkers? What if they are someone who has responsibilities including making decisions around policies for women, for example? It's deeply disturbing.

It's always seem very clear to me how prevalent AGP is and not just because of the overwhelming need to censor any discussion of it.

But, it has certainly taken these sorts of narratives for me to fully grasp quite how sex driven some of these men are. Every single thing in their lives is viewed as a potential masturbatory aid.

It goes an awful long way to explain the absolute explosive rage from some towards women who speak up about excluding them.

Have you got a link to that, Melroses?

There you go:

twitter.com/Women_Stand_Up/status/1514856289964277760

It's this thread I think @TinselAngel https://twitter.com/womenstandd_up/status/1514856289964277760?s=21&t=aOPpbdbtyd8BZtK0ZD37IQ

Thank you for sharing this article. No one can say we're making this up - it's in their own words.

There are 8 tweets in total, numbered 1 - 7 and 'End' ,

They got a bit muddled after tweet 3 - all linked to tweet 1.

Any TW posting in these sorts of groups result in so many women going out of their way to congratulate them and forgo their spaces - why?? I don’t understand it.

Cool women. Status jostling as cool women and more open brained minded then everyone else?

Hoping that demonstrating a willingness to show disloyalty to your own sex class and align yourself with the ultimate unclothed Emperor's demonstration of patriarchy says something fabulous about your character?

You sometimes hear the argument that those trans women who have had their penis inverted would be ok in women’s spaces. -that they are harmless, terribly dysphoric, people, who need women’s support and understanding.

Men seem particularly keen on the idea that penises are so mighty it stands to reason that women would be terrified of them, so trans women with dicks should, on this view, not be allowed in women only spaces e.g changing rooms.

A lot of men also think a man without a penis is not a man anymore.

These are all very male, phallocentric views, while the linked article is a very, very good argument for why those who have had surgery should no more be welcome in women’s spaces than those who have not.

In fact, in my opinion, those men who have taken their AGP so far they have lopped of their dick would likely be worse in a female changing room than another man who made no claim to womanhood.

Ohhh yuk ...

Reading within those links simply reinforces my opinion that even if changing room cubicles have lockable doors from floor to ceiling, they should never be mixed sex.

Recording devices can be so small, like the size of the end of a ball point pen, and any man, should he wish, could fix up the device in a changing room cubicle, ready for use when the next female goes into it.

One of the differences between the gay rights movement and the trans rights movement (other than that the latter clashes with the rights of women and the former does not) is that the former is based on one underlying difference while the latter really seems to have a multitude of possible reasons (ranging from AGP to just believing that women are favoured and cossetted in the society (!)( and get all the sex they want) to gender dysphoria to misdiagnosed body dysmorphia to internalised misogyny in girls and internalised homophobia in both girls and boys).

The paraphilia explanation is one of those, and based on what I have read online it is not at all uncommon, especially as the reason why so many men transition in middle age. There is a site where men with AGP support each other in how to cope with the condition. Some have transitioned or are contemplating it while others manage it in different ways.

It's not something anyone is choosing to have and the sufferers should be viewed with the same compassion sufferers from all mental disorders deserve as the condition can destroy their lives.

But that compassion certainly does not extend to destroying the lives of others or to turning them into masturbatory instruments or to the destruction of women's rights.

So I am glad we can talk about it, at least a little, and we MUST begin to talk about another aspect of all this:

The pornification of the concept of 'woman', and how the use of porn where 'woman' is equated with "someone who loves being debased and humiliated and hurt in sex" is slowly beginning to affect what is happening in the wider society:

The rough sex defense, the assumption some young men now make, without asking, that all women would like to be almost-strangled while having intercourse, and my theory that the number of men transitioning due to AGP has grown because of the online porn called sissy porn.

I also want to know how almost every Twitter account belonging to trans identified young people has a Japanese cartoon little girl's face in the profile. She always has those impossible large eyes with a tear or two in them, and she is certainly not a depiction of an adult.

It sounds weird, but the porn and these anime ideas are mixed together now,.

Agree with the poster who said this account should be made available to every MP and member of the House of Lords and every organisation that thinks it is OK to have trans women in single sex spaces or involved in female only sports/activities.

I am pretty convinced that the majority would have no idea the depth of depravity behind this movement where adult men are concerned.

I knew the paraphilia was bad e.g. the used sanitary towel thing, but even then I did not realise how deep into the mire of utter yukness it went.

My sister, who has completely swallowed the "we just need to pee" line, definitely needs to read this!

Sissy hypno porn is a massive problem.

@BootsAndRoots

Obviously a key focus on a website like this is going to be about how all AGP men are awful and what they make their wives go through, but I've seen this through a different POV.

I indirectly knew of a youngish heterosexual man (teenager/early twenties) who went through the full transition process, destroyed all family relationships in the process, but he thought the feelings he had were gender dysphoria. I don't know what position they're in now a few years later, but I fully expect regret will feature soon. I reckon if he knew it was AGP he probably wouldn't have transitioned. He was a confused and harmless individual, I wouldn't call him perverted (as seems to be a stereotypical view). I think about him being sold a lie, and the relationships broken due to it.

My feelings on the matter probably differ to most on this site, but I think it AGP needs to be publicised (not suppressed) as it will probably led a lot of men to realise that they have AGP and not gender dysphoria, and lead to a lot less damage and regret.

The trouble with the activism and suppression is that it leads anyone questioning their gender to seek the transition route, when it probably isn't suitable for a lot of cases.

I agree that for some men they really do suffer as a result of this, but it cannot be at the expense of women and girls in public spaces. It is not our job to roll over and give in just because they have some sort of disordered view of themselves. I would like to see them get support and treatment, but it is not our job to facilitate them.

I would also like to see AGP come out into the open, but many of the men who have it would not because it breaks the fantasy.

And as for transition, most middle aged men with AGP don't transition, why would they bother when they just claim female identity and get full access everywhere?

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Any TW posting in these sorts of groups result in so many women going out of their way to congratulate them and forgo their spaces - why?? I don’t understand it.

Cool women. Status jostling as cool women and more open brained minded then everyone else?

Hoping that demonstrating a willingness to show disloyalty to your own sex class and align yourself with the ultimate unclothed Emperor's demonstration of patriarchy says something fabulous about your character?

I also believe there is a generational divide in all this. I think for many of the young people supporting this, they see the gender identity rainbow 'be whatever you want to be' as a sort of pushback against the stuff conformity of previous generations.

Many young women don't see everyday sexism in society until they are older, some only do when they have children themselves.

Plus older women are demonised in society generally - witch, hag, spinster, etc. They are no longer considered 'fuckable' by men, so therefore are not useful to worthy to them. Young women see this derision and don't want to be subject to it so align themselves with the aggressors - men.

My feelings on the matter probably differ to most on this site, but I think it AGP needs to be publicised (not suppressed) as it will probably led a lot of men to realise that they have AGP and not gender dysphoria, and lead to a lot less damage and regret.

I think many of us here would like to see more open acknowledgement of AGP. It's mostly TRA's who try to shut down discussion about it because they don't want people to become aware that there is a sexual gratification element to feminine gender expression.

Blanchard has written about how men with AGP can experience gender dysphoria so from his point of view it's not one or the other. If I remember correctly the paraphilia precedes the gender dysphoria but not all cases of AGP lead to GD. Blanchard estimates the split is 75%/25% AGP vs HSTS.

I don't quite understand what the issue with describing a paraphilia as a target location error is. It seems quite neutral to me, a theory of what exactly goes wrong that a man develop this kind of thinking.

The benefit of understanding that, to me, is to see how it could potentially be prevented or treated when it's found. Which is better for everyone involved.

As our culture stands right now, I think we're almost maximizing the development of problems like AGP because of the way kids and teens are exposed to so much sexual material, because we don't tell kids that it's a good idea to have boundaries around sex, and when an abnormal type of thinking like AGP begins to appear we not only fail to recognize it, we almost encourage the individual to indulge it before they even recognize what's really going on.

I knew a woman through a group I belonged to who was struggling with this with her teen son. They were a very average family, did usual things, went to a usual school, not religious or anything. She described him as seeming desperate, and she was very uncomfortable with it but didn't know what to tell him or how to help him. The idea that you might say to someone - this fantasy life is unhealthy - was completely alien to her experience where they had always been told that such things were good and fine and would not affect anyone in a material way.

It's the question that keeps being dodged, mostly by trying hard to avoid bringing this into public view by deleting it like a game of whack-a-mole. Is it ever acceptable for one person to use and exploit another as a non consenting prop or resource in a personal sexual experience?

@FOJN

My feelings on the matter probably differ to most on this site, but I think it AGP needs to be publicised (not suppressed) as it will probably led a lot of men to realise that they have AGP and not gender dysphoria, and lead to a lot less damage and regret.

I think many of us here would like to see more open acknowledgement of AGP. It's mostly TRA's who try to shut down discussion about it because they don't want people to become aware that there is a sexual gratification element to feminine gender expression.

Blanchard has written about how men with AGP can experience gender dysphoria so from his point of view it's not one or the other. If I remember correctly the paraphilia precedes the gender dysphoria but not all cases of AGP lead to GD. Blanchard estimates the split is 75%/25% AGP vs HSTS.

Yeah, I think what he says is that in some the element of constant identification with this pseudo-female version of themselves actually leads to alienation from their own male body. Like looking in the mirror and what you see is not what you expect based on the mental image you are using for yourself.

@Artichokeleaves

It's the question that keeps being dodged, mostly by trying hard to avoid bringing this into public view by deleting it like a game of whack-a-mole. Is it ever acceptable for one person to use and exploit another as a non consenting prop or resource in a personal sexual experience?

Well exactly, to me it's akin to covertly filming women in public or something - using unsuspecting women to prop up their fantasies.

The problem we have right now is there has been a huge PR campaign to rebrand AGP as innate gender dysphoria, and therefore something to be pitied and supported instead of something to be angry about.

I'm not sure the two things are mutually exclusive. It is wholly possible to understand and sympathise with the root of it, but that in itself doesn't require non consenting people to participate. Particularly on a very much dimorphic sex-based basis.

It's like many other aspects of this debate that are framed as all or nothing when actually it need not be at all. For example TW reporting feeling unsafe in male spaces is something I have much sympathy for and understanding of - however it would be very possible to provide third spaces. This does not require the removal of female only spaces and the exclusion of many females. The one does not equal the other, it's a false equation. And it seeks to hide some of the reality of what is truly wanted, in fear that the truth would be less likely to be sympathised with.

@Artichokeleaves

It's the question that keeps being dodged, mostly by trying hard to avoid bringing this into public view by deleting it like a game of whack-a-mole. Is it ever acceptable for one person to use and exploit another as a non consenting prop or resource in a personal sexual experience?

I suppose then you have to ask how far you take that.

Is the person is unaware what's going on, for example.

Not to be too graphic, but I can remember reading those books they have for adolescents at school libraries saying that any kind of sexual fantasy, about the person next door for example, or a film star, etc, was ok, because they wouldn't know about it and it can't affect them.

Not the old sexual conservative view of that would have be to say, first of all, that it was still probably disrespectful to the individual being used for the fantasy (especially someone you know and interact with), and secondly, it can affect the way the person doing it thinks about and relates to others by making them up as private sexual objects.

If this is all ok, then it becomes a lot harder to pinpoint where it all goes astray. Is some guy shopping for eggs who is privately indulging a fantasy of himself as a housewife a problem given no one else in the supermarket can really know that? Or what?

When you start to think about how this could be managed at the level of social norms, it all starts to look a bit different because of course we don't know who is doing what for what reason.

Yes, the shading of boundaries so that it becomes very difficult to say at what point it is no longer acceptable and another person is able to say no without being argued with is another very familiar problem.

If it is someone who wishes to undress in a room where you are undressing despite your discomfort. Someone who wishes to pee where you are peeing. Remembering the Guardian columnist who wrote the article about enjoying the embarrassment of female shop staff in buying women's underwear and finishing the article 'I give them a smile to say 'I know you're not enjoying this but I am'.'

It's like whether the man watching you and smirking with a hand in his pocket is the same as the one who trips against you and manages to get a hand on your boob, or the one who openly pinches your bum, or the one who grabs you at the bar and demands a kiss, or the one who flashes you in the street...? At what point does it shade into really not ok now?

(And I'm very aware in all of these there would be an immediate biologically based burden on the one being the resource in the situation as to whether what they wore, where they were, what they were doing etc contributed in any way to them being a resource no one could be expected to treat with respect and not appropriate.)

I remember a girl from school whose parents divorced after her father started crossdressing (MNHQ this is what it was called then, getting on for 30 years ago). As children about 9 or 10 we thought it was funny that her Dad wanted to wear her Mum’s clothes. I remember him coming to a school event after they split up wearing earrings and carrying a hand bag but nothing more feminine than that and thinking he didn’t really look like a woman but a definite feeling of oddness around him that I couldn’t explain.

I also remember how my friend became more withdrawn before they eventually moved away. I often think of her and her mum now.

@Roseglen84 Absolutely not having to give up single-sex spaces. My point is really that men with AGP shouldn't transition (because it won't resolve the issues) and it leads to problems all around.

If people could talk about it, you will see a reduction in people transitioning. That's why I believe TRAs try to suppress any discussion around it, they're simply obsessed with bolstering their numbers.

There's a lot of misguided teens out there who have AGP, but the activists are telling that it is gender dysphoria and the only solution is to transition. There sexual arousal is actual "gender euphoria".

It just seems to me that we have a lot of confused children (girls not wanting to grow up in a misogynistic environment, and boys not fitting into the macho stereotype) with an industry ready to take advantage of that and sending them on a one way route to transition.

Yeah, I think what he says is that in some the element of constant identification with this pseudo-female version of themselves actually leads to alienation from their own male body. Like looking in the mirror and what you see is not what you expect based on the mental image you are using for yourself.

Thank you, that's a much better explanation.