Jess Phillips: no trans person I've met says we shouldn't say "woman"

[ResisterRex]

There's a long interview in the Telegraph to promote her book. There's no share token option so only the sex/gender "what is a woman", and importance of language section is below but the interview does also cover her VAWG work and list she reads in Parliament each year.

It's hard to tell if she means we shouldn't say woman for women, and transwomen for transwomen. Or if this means TWAW.

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/04/09/jess-phillips-no-trans-person-met-has-said-cant-say-woman/

"I ask Phillips what she makes of the endless debate within politics of what constitutes a woman – shortly after we meet, her boss, Keir Starmer, comes under pressure againn_ when he refuses to answer the question. Phillips, who is on compassionate leave when it happens, claims to have “missed that interview. To be honest I’ve not heard the Keir thing”.

In the past, she has said that she believes biological sex exists, “and we are discriminated against on the basis of our biological sex, without question.” She has also noted the “de-womanising of language” in regard to the Domestic Abuse Bill passed in summer 2020 that made no mention of women. “There are so many dissenting issues that are there to distract from the substantive,” she says now. “The substantive of women’s rights deeply matters to me. And not taking away the language of women, because I don’t want to – I like it, and I don’t know who’s demanding it. No trans person I’ve ever met has said that we shouldn’t say ‘woman’.”"

@Wrongkindofovercoat

It's a shame as I do applaud her for reading out the names of murdered women in Parliament every year

Isn't it a list of women murdered by men ?

Yes, thanks for the correction.

It feels like such a betrayal from Jess because she, even with the genuine passion she puts into her work on VAWG, still puts party ideology above truth when push comes to shove.

She's disingenuous by pretending 'not to have heard' or be aware of previous interviews or questions, she's fudging so she doesn't have to answer.

Listening to Jess be a coward and, in my opinion lie like this, makes me admire Rosie Duffield even more for refusing to capitulate to the mob for a quieter life - which is what Jess is doing.

I'm inclined to be angry about her reading out the list of murdered women every year.

I'm fucking furious with her about it; making feminist capital whilst fucking women over. Craven opportunist.

She knows she needs to be absolutely clear and consistent. Instead we get little sound bites here and there for TRAs to like.
She has seen what happened to Rosie Duffield and she's been cowardly

"no trans person I've met says we shouldn't say "woman"

and if they did? who fucking cares, what authority do they have over the rest of society, its like black people having to ask white people for permission to be called black.

moot point.

But they do say we cannot conflate woman with being female. So yes we can say woman as long as we make it clear that we include TW in that. So no, we can’t really say woman to mean woman can we?

@FOJN

I'm inclined to be angry about her reading out the list of murdered women every year.

I'm fucking furious with her about it; making feminist capital whilst fucking women over. Craven opportunist.

I don't want to take that away from her - I think she does a good thing. But her contribution to the self ID proposal could still turn out to be catastrophic for women's rights and I'm afraid for me, that overshadows everything else she's done. Even if she disagrees about it, she could still speak out for Rosie Duffield.

@Crcohetmonster

But they do say we cannot conflate woman with being female. So yes we can say woman as long as we make it clear that we include TW in that. So no, we can’t really say woman to mean woman can we?

they will have female soon, I just filled out an application form for a job at Oliver Bonas and it asked for gender identity with a drop down menu saying male, female, trans male, trans female, prefer not to say or other.

They’re already trying.

She's had the evidence offered to her many times, not least by TW themselves, so she's either lying, or she's incompetent and forgetful. Neither of those options are a good look for an MP.

She is craven and cowardly on this, and it’s a shame because she has so much potential.

I’m certain she is gender critical - she described herself in precisely those terms on a podcast once - but she won’t nail her colours to the mast on this. I think she’s hoping to navigate some kind of realpolitik path through the problem, but in the end she may just have to say what she thinks.

Transwomen are transwomen. Say that Jess.

I don't want to take that away from her - I think she does a good thing.

She reads a list compiled by Karen Ingala Smith. Her hypocrisy is unforgivable, how can she highlight male violence against women whilst supporting a policy which would increase a women's risk of experiencing male violence. I'm glad our politicians have to hear the name of every woman murdered by a man I just think it's time for someone with more integrity than JP to do it.

I have huge admiration for KIS. Counting Dead Women started in 2012 which predates proposed reforms to the GRA.

@FOJN

I don't want to take that away from her - I think she does a good thing.

She reads a list compiled by Karen Ingala Smith. Her hypocrisy is unforgivable, how can she highlight male violence against women whilst supporting a policy which would increase a women's risk of experiencing male violence. I'm glad our politicians have to hear the name of every woman murdered by a man I just think it's time for someone with more integrity than JP to do it.

I have huge admiration for KIS. Counting Dead Women started in 2012 which predates proposed reforms to the GRA.

why cant they fill the gallery with volunteers from womens charities and have them read it out?

I dont think they would get many takers if they asked for female victims of male violence to come in and do, not many would want their face known, but then a lot of volunteers at womens charities are abuse victims.

She’s a coward I think, now is the safest time ever to speak out, for goodness sake even the PM has done so

I think you are being terribly naive if you think it is now safe for everyone to speak out.

Someone asked the other other day whether the FWR boards on Mumsnet were an echo chamber.

This and similar threads make the answer crystal clear. It's the faux naïveté that drives me mad. You're not so thick that you don't understand that context matters. Of course, in a biological/medical context, women do not have penises and men do not have cervixes. But everyone is a human being and when it comes to human rights everyone has them. So there is a problem in reconciling the two when one group's entitlement infringes another group's rights. You know all this.

It's a conundrum that needs rational discussion and compromise. It's not a debate to be settled by a simplistic gotcha question posed by someone like Nick Ferrari to grab headlines. Starmer's answer was the only possible grown-up answer in the circs, especially from someone with a background in human rights law.

And now you're having a go at Jess Philips who has spent years of her life campaigning for women's rights and using her refusal to jump on your bandwagon as a reason to blacken her character. So short-sighted and- yes - juvenile.

And if any of you is seriously intending to switch your vote on the basis of anything Boris Johnson says, after how many? U turns in as many days, I take back what I wrote about not being so thick that...

“The substantive of women’s rights deeply matters to me. And not taking away the language of women, because I don’t want to – I like it, and I don’t know who’s demanding it. No trans person I’ve ever met has said that we shouldn’t say ‘woman’.”"

But certainly many trans activists (including many trans persons) have said exactly that! They believe that it is fine to say 'woman' when the reference is to someone of either sex who feels feminine, but it is not right to say 'pregnant women' as that excludes people who can get pregnant but do not want to be called women. They also believe that to say 'woman' the reference must include individuals who are not biologically female but identify as women.

What they are actually saying is that there can be no word for people who are biologically female.

The interview was with Bryony Gordon.

Ah, but was Jess campaigning for female women’s rights or male women’s rights? And how did she know she was campaigning for women’s rights if her boss was saying no one can define woman? Was she just fighting for random peoples rights?

Interesting to describe the defending of Women’s rights against the aggressive attacks on them by TRA as a “bandwagon”

If Jess hadn’t build her career on being a feminist and champion of Women’s rights it wouldn’t matter but she has and it does

I'm not "thick", TYVM, Thyme.

Phillips reads out a list of dead women murdered by men. That list is compiled by a woman thrown out of the LP for refusing to recant.

@tabbycatstripy

She does a lot of the disingenuous ‘not heard anything about that’ thing.

Agree. This is not the first thing she “hasn’t heard” about. I used to like her but now I don’t trust her at all.

She does a lot of the disingenuous ‘not heard anything about that’ thing.

In her defence, I don't know any Trans people who say this either- the Genderists claim to speak for Trans people but don't.

😂 Someone who thinks Starmer's assertion that some men are women is 'the only possible grown up answer', calls other people thick.😂

I happen to think adults pretending to believe a fiction is pretty damn childish. And thick.

@Thymeout

Of course, in a biological/medical context, women do not have penises and men do not have cervixes. But everyone is a human being and when it comes to human rights everyone has them. So there is a problem in reconciling the two when one group's entitlement infringes another group's rights. You know all this.

Of course we all know that. No feminist is demanding the right to shout 'its a man, man' at transwomen in the street. It's the cases where biology is important where this distinction matters most and it's precisely those where 'no debate' is pushed hardest.

I'm broadly sympathetic to Jess, it think she is cautious in expressing herself for good reason; but I do get why others find her disingenuous- it doesn't mean they are arguing in bad faith.