Why do Labour women make this so much worse than it need be?

[Pluvia]

I've come under pretty aggressive attack on another platform twice today. Once because I linked to Hadley Freemans's article The Week the Trans Spell was Broken:

unherd.com/2022/04/the-week-the-trans-spell-was-broken/

and once because I linked to an old Times article, which I won't link to here because I don't have a share token.

Each time I was shouted down and bullied by women of the left telling me I shouldn't link to Unherd or the Times because they are right-wing puppets of the Tory party. The women concerned — a group of about six of them — are the kind of hard-line Labour supporters who demand total purity. They have only fairly recently started expressing GC ideas, while I've been out there plugging away for years (and have been shunned as a Hateful Bigot by at least half the people I once counted as friends). Now they've crossed over to the GC side and they're patrolling it with the same ferocity that they do everything else.

I struggle to get my head around it because I have always been a Labour voter, am currently an active member of my Labour CLP trying to beat off the woke bros, and here I have Labour women telling me I can't post a Hadley Freeman article — Hadley Freeman of the Guardian — because the platform she's posting on was founded by a Tory and hosts people with right-wing views.

I've responded very firmly about women being blocked and banned and bullied from posting on left-wing sites. But ffs, if this goes on for very much longer it's going to drive me into the arms of the Tories.

Politically am centre/right of centre. People on both left and right disagree with me - that's fine. I believe many on left are naive, perhaps a bit ignorant of world outside public sector/services (teaching, NHS, academia, civil service) but have good intentions.

Conversely, many on left (at least in social media) seem to think not that I am bit misguided in political beliefs but that am simply evil. No acknowledgement of fact that two reasonable people can look at same evidence and draw diff. conclusions. But agree with PP - this is not about Labour women; Labour men take same approach.

People on right generally protective of family, because reams of research shows strong family is basis for better outcomes for children and healthy society, thus those on right have taken active role in asserting primacy of biological sex over gender.

People on left caught in philosophical cleft stick. Have sneered for decades at "traditional" family due to overtones of patriarchy / repression, but now biological womanhood being positioned as "tradition" that needs to be overturned by activists. "On wrong side of history!" they warn. If trad family, trad marriage, trad womanhood roles can be overturned, why not also "traditional" sex roles? Becomes difficult argument to counter for those on left: sacrificed everything else, why not this? Pressure to appear consistent very strong.

Personally disagree strongly with trans argument. If men want to wear women's clothes (or vice versa), let them, be kind to them. But don't let them change society for worse in pursuit of (illusory) comfort, or let them destroy what space women have won. Me, have no daughters, but fear for the future of women if trend of trans activism not reversed. Think this is the attitude in wider population as well.

Son reading 1984 at moment. Again and again come back to Orwell's words: "The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command." Trans activists are telling us to reject evidence of eyes & ears. Will not end well.

Mackerson

The Conservative party have been the leading party for the last 12 years.

What great and amazing things do you think they have done, that no other party could have at least managed to do?

MackersonThe Conservative party have been the leading party for the last 12 years. What great and amazing things do you think they have done, that no other party could have at least managed to do

JC544D You posted this comment having previously said

The Conservative party have been the leading party, running the country for the last 12 years. If you have any questions about the running of the country for the last 12 years, address it to them, as they have been the people in charge, making the rules.

Why don’t you take your own advice?

@Mackerson

when I say the tories are scum I am talking about tories, mogg, johnson etc.

if your a voter who gets offended I would be looking at myself hard in the mirror and asking why I identify as a tory?

Thank you @VelvetChairGirl. You illustrate my point perfectly. You are a left wing woman who abuses Conservative voters and politicians by calling them scum. You speak without nuance, moderation or qualification.
And like all abusers, whether it be in a domestic situation or a wider setting, you believe that your insults and denigration are perfectly acceptable because the abused brought it on themselves by failing to check their language and behaviour to suit your ideas and beliefs.
Why not dare to broaden your horizons and engage with people who have different ideas and philosophies rather than shut them down.

no I just dont count the voters, I'm talking about the party

@JC544D

Mackerson

The Conservative party have been the leading party for the last 12 years.

What great and amazing things do you think they have done, that no other party could have at least managed to do?

Have you considered that government isn't about the production of supposed great works, it is about keeping things ticking over and letting people get on with their lives?

What "great works" are there for any political party in the modern context? We already have a state healthcare system. We already have state schools.

There's plenty of stuff that needs reform, for sure. Policing and courts are a great example. We already have them, and they definitely need to be better, but that's not the same as creating them from scratch.

If we look back to Labour's last stint in government, what were their great works? Scottish devolution has been an absolute joke. PFI is a national albatross. All these bright ideas that have since transpired to be bloody awful.

When politicians tell you they have a big plan, you should run a mile. Doubly so if that politician is Jeremy Corbyn. Because "big plans" in the modern context start with viciously hacking apart whatever system we already have in place.

And after hearing dozens of the plans that start with "burn it all down, then rebuild" it does make you wonder if these people care more about burning stuff down. There's a certain kind of insanity that comes from a belief in Year Zero and the New Man.

Again, I'm not a Tory. I won't defend them on anything, because I don't agree with most of what they do. But we need to make sane, gradual steps to improve what we already have.

"JennyPourQuoi
If we look back to Labour's last stint in government, what were their great works?"

The minimum wage!

Unbelievably today, hard fought against by certain sections of society and the Conservative party!

You wouldn't believe how hard the minimum wage was fought for!

@JC544D

Mackerson

The Conservative party have been the leading party for the last 12 years.

What great and amazing things do you think they have done, that no other party could have at least managed to do?

Why do you think I am a Conservative? Where have I said that? I've voted for different parties over many elections. But if you want to think I'm a Conservative, fine. It's not an issue to

me. I have no argument with people criticising parties and politicians across the entire political spectrum. I've no problem with people disagreeing with voters of other parties.
My point is that I have watched people on here be abused with the most horrible words because of how they voted and it is by far left wingers that use abusive language against Conservative or UKIP voters. There's no effort to understand why they voted that way, just a pile on of abuse. And then those very left wingers, some of whom have been involved in that abuse, are appalled when they find themselves shut down because they have a different view to the rest of the left wing pack. But why should they be shocked when they've seen it happening to others? They say they want an open and civilised debate but I can't help wonder if in reality that only applies to the issues over which they are receiving abuse. Other issues they'll stand back on and let the abuse continue.

I have friends of different political persuasion and I disagree with some of what they say. (In actual fact we agree over a lot more than we disagree.) But I've never called them a wankstain or an arsewipe. I can't even get my head round the abusive gutter politics of it really. My point is that as SM makes the country more polarised, so this is exactly the time that intelligent people should be debating with facts rather than insults.

@JC544D

"JennyPourQuoi If we look back to Labour's last stint in government, what were their great works?"

The minimum wage!

Unbelievably today, hard fought against by certain sections of society and the Conservative party!

You wouldn't believe how hard the minimum wage was fought for!

My husband is Swedish - They do not have a minimum wage over there. Yes, lovely, clean, high income, high tax Sweden. They also don't have healthcare that is free at the point of use. You can always get a doctors appointment any time you want, but you have to pay 200kronor or so.

You wouldn't believe how many British sacred cows don't exist in genuine social democracies.

One that is most shocking to British lefties (other than paying to see your GP) is that in Sweden you see a lot of flags. It's a very normal thing for normal Swedes to have a flagpole with a Swedish flag outside their home. No, not just when the football is on. All the time.

This is not some crazy American capitalist society. It is a social democracy, run by the Social Democratic Party, with the opposition parties including the Moderate party and the Center party. Sweden does not have a legal minimum wage, but Texas does. Draw your own conclusions.

I once posted an article from the DM about child safeguarding and girlguides and the first comment was a sniffy one about how no-one was interested in reading a “daily fail” article. That was on the feminism boards. Tbh I was like 🙄.

I’m a centerist, have voted for everyone except the BNP and UKIP. I have no problem reading anything. Even tried to read “mein kampf” but had to stop because it was basically really boring (I’m not white incase anyone decides this is evidence of nascent white supremacy). I always considered it utterly childish to not read something because you don’t like the source.

People have told me they couldn’t read JK Rowlings open letter because she’s transphobic and I was like “how would you know, you haven’t read it”.

Hopefully this whole thing will make people a little more open minded and prepared to have a proper debate. We seem to have lost that and settled for “I feel….” Instead of evidence and logic. Its poor, our ability to discuss without rancour has atrophied as a society.

Social licensing/moral licensing is a really interesting explanation for why people behave like this. You see it in people with political affiliations they believe makes them “good people” or when people excuse abusive behaviour by TRA’s. A poster a few days ago posted about victim virtue signalling and dark triad personalities. Was really interesting and encourage everyone to have a read.

@Mackerson makes a good point - Most of us have more in common politically than we have differences.

Most of us here agree with the general shape of society. We want a little more or less emphasis in one place or another. Spend more on doctors, less on defense; or whatever you prefer. There's no reason why we can't have a sensible discussion on these things.

The problem is that there is a small and very loud group of more extreme people who want to whip every discussion into a frenzy. Even when everyone is on the same wavelength, they will find something to spark a purity spiral and an outrage, and force everyone else to agree that we need to smash the system just to shut them up.

The only way we can work is cross party against this nonsense.

They will learn.

Since when does the Venn diagram of gc views and left wing or anything else have to be a circle?

I completely agree with you but there seems to be a number amongst my acquaintance for whom no difference of opinion is acceptable. They’d pride themselves on their liberal inclusiveness and their feminism but if you deviate from The Accepted Views then you’re out in the cold.

Similarly, an ex friend often took to screaming on FB about Tory scum/monsters and Evil Brexiteers who were turning the UK into a fascist state where poor people would be left to die. Firstly, they assumed that none of their friends was a Tory voter (which was not the case) but they also seemed oblivious to how intolerant and hate-filled their behaviour was.

The closer people like this come to realising that it might just be them who ends up on the wrong side of history here, the more desperate the rhetoric and invective becomes.

All this ties into Labour because they’ve typically been the party of the oppressed. That they’re doing the oppressing is something they just can’t face up to.

@ScreamingMeMe

For the umpteenth time:

Saying you don't want to vote Labour =/= voting Conservative!

And even if some people do, that's their choice, which they are entitled to, and if you're annoyed with anyone, be annoyed with Labour for fucking up and fucking people off.

We don't. But at the end of the day in a First Past the Post political system, it goes like this:

Are you going to vote Johnson and have Liz Truss/ Kemi Badenoch and a moratorium on "Conversion Therapy" ban on gender identity?

Or are you going to vote for Starmer and have Anneliese 'I don't know what a Woman is' Dodds as your Equalities Secretary? And Emily "Some Women have Penises" Thornberry as your Home Secretary? And this at a time when "Women" are "raping" Women via distorted crime statistics.

The economy will recover eventually and we'll all just have to tighten our belts. Our inalienable rights, once repealed will take a lifetime to recover.

I can't see myself forgiving myself if we end up in Scotland's position (GRA Reform) because we held our nose and voted for Starmer.

Our inalienable rights, once repealed will take a lifetime to recover.

This concerns me a lot too. Plus the economy has been hit hard by two global events, I’d always said that we were storing up rising costs - made worse due the war granted, but there was a lot of public want for what has caused it.

I am very worried about losing rights long term, and for dd.

JennyPourQuoi

You want us to be like Sweden?

Well, the Conservative party would be the absolutely last party anyone would vote for to be like Sweden.

Are there seriously people out there thinking that voting Conservative will turn us into a Swedish type government.

For a start, Sweden has PR, and you'd never find a party further than advocating PR that the UK Conservative party. So that's more than a fail at the first fence.

@Fluffymule

As I’ve become more interested and involved in the issue of gender identity politics and the trans overreach into erasing women’s rights I’ve also had a shift in my own political prejudices and assumptions.

I see people throwing labels like ‘Tory Scum’ again on this thread and I wonder how that really differs from having labels like ‘bigoted TERF’ thrown at us. It’s as bad as throwing ‘racist anti-Semite’ at all Labour voters too.

I’m learning to be more intellectually curious about other peoples opinions and motivations. I’m learning to apply critical thinking to all sides of an argument, not just those I immediately disagree with. I now question all information sources, including those I may have trusted in the past.

Hear, Hear!

It seems very odd on here that so many people say a leading party in control of the country for 12 years shouldn't be questioned.

If you can't question the people in charge making the rules for the last 12 years, who can you question?

It's beyond bizarre!

@VelvetChairGirl I think you exemplify exactly why a lot of people are turned off by lefty/ socialist types.

There is a blanket refusal and intolerance to accept a diversity of opinions or political positions other than your own. That's normally what we call "bigotry".

Hurling abuse at people who vote Tory, when you yourself appear to lack the critical thinking to reflect that Keir Starmer, (leader of the main lefty party), was quite prepared to let Rosie Duffield be bullied and intimidated out of the last Labour Conference because she said only Women have a cervix, is quite laughable.

And don't even get me started on Corbyn's laundering of anti-semitism.

People vote on issues and if they don't see the world as you do, it doesn't make them "fools".

Get your head out of your bigoted backside for a minute.

I thought this thread was more about insults people lob at each rather than questions to the government

Maybe that’s part of the problem, they’ve become synonymous for many - asking questions to those in charge has just become insults online / irl at people on the other side

@JC544D

It seems very odd on here that so many people say a leading party in control of the country for 12 years shouldn't be questioned.

If you can't question the people in charge making the rules for the last 12 years, who can you question?

It's beyond bizarre!

Don't think anyone is saying nobody should question the Tories or their policies. We're asking if there is a need to abuse people who hold different political stances/ positions/ allegiances than you do.

Here's a really good GC post from yesterday by a woman on the "soft left":

softleft.substack.com/p/sometimes-its-hard?s=r

Who is not me by the way! I saw it on Twitter and couldn't see it here so wanted to share.

So are trans women allowed in female prisons at the moment ? Or are labour proposing it ?
Likewise with trans women using women only refuges and trans women taking part in female sports ? Is it already going on ?
I'm getting confused. Are these things happening now or threatened by a labour gov ?

My husband is Swedish - They do not have a minimum wage over there. Yes, lovely, clean, high income, high tax Sweden. They also don't have healthcare that is free at the point of use. You can always get a doctors appointment any time you want, but you have to pay 200kronor or so.

You wouldn't believe how many British sacred cows don't exist in genuine social democracies.

One that is most shocking to British lefties (other than paying to see your GP) is that in Sweden you see a lot of flags. It's a very normal thing for normal Swedes to have a flagpole with a Swedish flag outside their home. No, not just when the football is on. All the time.

This is not some crazy American capitalist society. It is a social democracy, run by the Social Democratic Party, with the opposition parties including the Moderate party and the Center party. Sweden does not have a legal minimum wage, but Texas does. Draw your own conclusions.

Part of the reason this happens I think on the left is that people for some reason take a very ideological, and binary few of policy initiatives.

So they think, minimum wage is how you make sure people get paid a fair wage, and if you care about the poor you want fair wages, so if you don't want minimum wage you must be a terrible person who does not care about the poor.

It doesn't seem to occur to them that there might be other ways to accomplish the same goal, or that almost all policy approaches have pros and cons, and some may work better in some places than others.

And most of all, that you are not evil because you might think a different approach is the better one.

Sweden has a very high union membership and stronger unions than the UK. There are nationwide negotiations between unions and employers, overseen by government, to fix pay and conditions.
Back when the UK had strong unions in the 70s, the unions were opposed to having a minimum wage. That's why the UK introduced a minimum wage in 1998 or so (after its unions had been largely crushed), not in 1945 or 1966 or 1974. The US had had a minimum wage for ages.