Why do Labour women make this so much worse than it need be?

[Pluvia]

I've come under pretty aggressive attack on another platform twice today. Once because I linked to Hadley Freemans's article The Week the Trans Spell was Broken:

unherd.com/2022/04/the-week-the-trans-spell-was-broken/

and once because I linked to an old Times article, which I won't link to here because I don't have a share token.

Each time I was shouted down and bullied by women of the left telling me I shouldn't link to Unherd or the Times because they are right-wing puppets of the Tory party. The women concerned — a group of about six of them — are the kind of hard-line Labour supporters who demand total purity. They have only fairly recently started expressing GC ideas, while I've been out there plugging away for years (and have been shunned as a Hateful Bigot by at least half the people I once counted as friends). Now they've crossed over to the GC side and they're patrolling it with the same ferocity that they do everything else.

I struggle to get my head around it because I have always been a Labour voter, am currently an active member of my Labour CLP trying to beat off the woke bros, and here I have Labour women telling me I can't post a Hadley Freeman article — Hadley Freeman of the Guardian — because the platform she's posting on was founded by a Tory and hosts people with right-wing views.

I've responded very firmly about women being blocked and banned and bullied from posting on left-wing sites. But ffs, if this goes on for very much longer it's going to drive me into the arms of the Tories.

[quote roarfeckingroarr]@TedsFederationRep hello fellow GC Tory woman who can get along with people of any political persuasion if they're reasonable and respect womens rights 🙋‍♀️[/quote]

Hello @roarfeckingroarr!

I must confess, when I saw the notification alert, my first thought was "Here we go. Abuse for admitting to being an evil Tory".

For those who find it hard to see past the label though, let me explain a few things about how I got here - because I wasn't born a Conservative, you know. I've voted Labour and LibDem in the past too.

I live in a very marginal marginal. It's either Conservative or LibDem - no other party gets a look-in - and the result is always on a knife edge. In 2017 and 2019, my choice was stark. Conservative woman who made it clear that she put children first but said little about identity politics...or LibDem transwoman whose avowed aim was to get into the House of Commons so he could focus all of his attentions - and I mean ALL - on bringing in Self ID and on binning the spousal consent clause for trans widows.

The Conservatives weren't the best fit for my political views but I had to make a choice and wasting my vote wasn't an option. He would have slipped in through the back door.

So what, oh left wing voting women, would you have done?

So I didn't just vote Conservative but - sit down or you'll faint with shock - I actually joined the Conservative Party. It was doing a lot of fence sitting then - Theresa May, Maria Miller and Penny Mordaunt were openly advocating "TWAW so BeKind" - but as a party member, it meant I could canvass for my Conservative candidate and act as a teller at the local polling station where I was called Tory bitch and motherf*** for my troubles by the few men who slunk past me sporting their red rosettes while completely failing to make eye contact.

Since 2017, I've dinned the ear of my Conservative MP at regular and frequent intervals about women's rights and about the dismantling of child safeguarding, and did the same with my Tory county councillor. I shamelessly used my party membership to influence grassroots thinking in the party and gradually persuaded the local constituency party to move from the stance of BeKind to openly GC.

When I joined the Women's Rights Network some time ago, it was a joy to find myself in the company of gender critical and radfem women and - even more then that - to find that some of them had done exactly what I had done. They had joined the Labour Party, the LibDems, the Greens, to counteract gender ideology from the inside.

None of us find our parties a perfect fit. I certainly don't. But we work with what we've got, and we network and we work cross-party and we stand shoulder to shoulder on defending and protecting women, girls and children.

If anyone wants to pick holes in that and call me an evil Tory, that's up to them. I couldn't give a monkeys, frankly. Right now, I'm too busy being vigilant, making sure my Conservative MP and councillor don't falter, and lobbying Dominic Raab to get TW out of women's prisons and Sajid Javid to get Annex B dropped by NHS Trusts. Oh, and making sure that Penny "TWAW" Mordaunt doesn't get a sniff in the next leadership contest.

@Fluffymule

As I’ve become more interested and involved in the issue of gender identity politics and the trans overreach into erasing women’s rights I’ve also had a shift in my own political prejudices and assumptions.

I see people throwing labels like ‘Tory Scum’ again on this thread and I wonder how that really differs from having labels like ‘bigoted TERF’ thrown at us. It’s as bad as throwing ‘racist anti-Semite’ at all Labour voters too.

I’m learning to be more intellectually curious about other peoples opinions and motivations. I’m learning to apply critical thinking to all sides of an argument, not just those I immediately disagree with. I now question all information sources, including those I may have trusted in the past.

I pretty sure I made myself clear, imo a tory is someone who is paid member of the conservative party.

your a voter, why are you acting like its a football team your supporting?

saying your a socialist or capitalist is fine, thats not the same, you might vote for any number of parties that support your views that are either socialist or capitalist.

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid, as I said before johnson wouldnt piss on you if you was on fire, if they bulldozed all the houses on your road to build a motorway do you think they'd care how any of the residents had voted?

no of course they wouldnt so why are you counting yourself as one of them? when I start talking about my political leanings I say I am a socialist or I am a lefty, I dont say I am the Labour party, I have voted for them more often then not, but I have also not voted for them, like now under starmer I wont touch them and I didnt vote for blair either, because I'm a socialist.

@Pluvia

The Conservatives here are doing a good job of herding me back in a leftward direction. Whinging about people being rude to a party that in the last 15 years has done nothing to prevent the slide of more and more people into poverty isn't a good look. Just because I'm furious with the hard left of my own party doesn't mean I can't see the utter corrupt elitist shit show of the current Tory government.

Maybe you aren't as open minded as you think?

Because it seems like you are saying it's ok to call people names and condemn whole large groups of voters just so long as it isn't related to the ideas you happen to agree with.

@thinkingaboutLangCleg

I admire people like you, Pluvia, who have spoken up on social media and persisted despite all the abuse. Well done especially for finally converting a bunch of hard cases.

It must be galling to have these dimwits now toeing a new line and telling you how to do GC properly. But I am seriously excited to hear that GC is becoming the new position to take.

It's very kind of you, @thinkingaboutLangCleg. I'm lucky in that I'm self-employed and have worked from home for a decade in a male-dominated sector where people would laugh if you said people could change sex. I saw how difficult it was for GC women in the NHS or education or a dozen other sectors to speak up, so my partner and I took it on ourselves to say what others couldn't or wouldn't. We have been luckier than some couples we know because we are both GC and share the same feminist values. It's good to see at last that we may have had an effect.

I agree with many other posters here about having to rethink everything with regard to party politics. I was a DM eye-roller: now I'm more open-minded. I question everything and I'm not sure I see things in terms of left and right any more and certainly not left=good, right=bad.

I've had a response from the woman who berated me most loudly about Unherd last night. She's explained at length that Unherd is funded by George Soros and other ultra-right US and UK figures as a way of luring innocent readers down the path of ultra-conservatism and populism. Apparently it occasionally publishes some moderate and left-wing people like Hadley Freeman as a way of drawing people in... I can't be arsed to do the research, frankly.

I've responded by reminding her that a couple of years ago she told me that my GC views were ultra-conservative and I was a puppet of George Soros and now she's agreeing with my pov.

I would have thought it's very open-minded of me to be equally angry with both the right and the left, MangyInseam... But each to her own.

She's explained at length that Unherd is funded by George Soros and other ultra-right US

As far as I can tell George Soros donates to the Democratic Party and any campaign which opposes the republicans.

@FOJN

She's explained at length that Unherd is funded by George Soros and other ultra-right US

As far as I can tell George Soros donates to the Democratic Party and any campaign which opposes the republicans.

Didn't someone also link him to funding the trans movement on the US, and got labelled antisemitic for it?

But yes, George Soros is definitely left wing.

And I do admire anyone staying in their respective parties and trying to affect change from the inside. Massive respect to you all.

That's weird because I thought all the right wing conspiracies were anti Soros

I pretty sure I made myself clear, imo a tory is someone who is paid member of the conservative party.

your a voter, why are you acting like its a football team your supporting?

saying your a socialist or capitalist is fine, thats not the same, you might vote for any number of parties that support your views that are either socialist or capitalist.

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid, as I said before johnson wouldnt piss on you if you was on fire, if they bulldozed all the houses on your road to build a motorway do you think they'd care how any of the residents had voted?

no of course they wouldnt so why are you counting yourself as one of them? when I start talking about my political leanings I say I am a socialist or I am a lefty, I dont say I am the Labour party, I have voted for them more often then not, but I have also not voted for them, like now under starmer I wont touch them and I didnt vote for blair either, because I'm a socialist.

I am not 'stupid' VelvetChairGirl, nor did I say that I am a Tory - you may wish to read my post again for clarification.

My post simply stated that I found name slinging, much like calling people 'stupid', to be unhelpful whatever political or ideological position people fling their insults from.

But yes, George Soros is definitely left wing.

Thanks for the confirmation. I often see left leaning posters on MN make assertions about the political leanings of someone they don't agree with and then I have to go and check what I thought I knew.

Perhaps OP should tell her friend she is mistaken.

I have had a similar experience to @TedsFederationRep - I am not really a Tory in terms of my politics, but I am a party member because I live in a very safe Tory seat (about 60% at the last election) and being a member gives me the chance to make clear how much this stuff means to me.

The thing is that there really is no other party that seems to want me. I would call myself a social democrat. I'm not an economic or social radical, I just want good public services, and I want women's rights protected and respected.

Labour (and anyone else on the Left) seems unwilling to negotiate on women's rights. They are TWAW and if you think otherwise you are not welcome. The Tories aren't great on public services but they are at least open to it, and seem to be listening about women being a real thing.

I flatly refuse to have zero representation at all, simply because no party really aligns with what I want. The only other places that are listening about trans issues are way further to the right, and I don't agree with Lawrence Fox about anything else.

Most frustratingly, we live in a time where the Women's Equality Party hounded out one of their own spokeswomen for suggesting that society shouldn't transition children. The same party desperately tries not to address the trans issue, while also arguing that transwomen face discrimination because they are women. The Women's Equality Party thinks that me, a woman, trying to exclude a man from the ladies' loo is an act of misogyny. How can I be a political feminist when the feminist party is presently fighting for equality for men in dresses?

"I would call myself a social democrat. I'm not an economic or social radical, I just want good public services, and I want women's rights protected and respected."

That's pretty much my position, @JennyPourQuoi.

I too had hopes of the Women's Equality Party - not because I thought there was a reasonable chance that it would establish a national reach big enough to challenge the two big parties but because I thought it might act as an effective ginger group in terms of women's issues.

What a disappointment the WEP turned out to be.

My first question of any political party now is quite simply: "What is your definition of 'woman'?" Any answer other than "adult human female, no ifs or buts" and the manifesto goes straight in the bin. I will not vote for any party that ignores my sex.

And meanwhile, the fact that Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP are fully behind the TWAW agenda means that once again, women in this country are being denied real political choice.

@Mackerson

I find your post to be a bit rich, to be honest. For quite a long time people on the centre or right have been bullied, harassed and insulted by people on the left and I don't remember a vein of left wing women standing up for their right to free speech. Here on MN it's regular to hear Conservatives voters described as twats, cunts and scum. And worse. Honestly outside women and gender issues, I don't generally see posters or even MNHQ closing that down. For left wing women abuse of other people has always been acceptable because you agreed with the abusers. Suddenly because you're now on the wrong side of the Labour faithful and the left wing social media, you think what they're doing is awful. Because it affects you.

I saw on another thread a poster praising Boris because now people might be able to have an open and non toxic (paraphrasing) debate without abuse. It's as if the barage of abuse and the closing down of contrary ideas they'd seen and suffered was news to them. But for a whole swathe of the population this has been happening for years. And I wonder if when the GC debate has gone away, if left wing women will settle back into the status quo of allowing abuse of non left wingers by letting their silence be read as tacit encouragement.

👏🏼 Many times in the work group chat people rant on about tories. Just assuming no one votes conservative?? I would never do the same r.e. labour.

This conversation is very much needed. Online politics, at least, are now extremely tribal and some secular political issues are treated as if they part of the religious tenet of some church and as if questioning those tenets can only be declared as blasphemy (#nodebate).

But I do wonder if there isn't something about the human psyche which attracts us into that all-or-nothing framework (rooting for one's party in the same manner as one might root for a football team).

@FOJN

But yes, George Soros is definitely left wing.

Thanks for the confirmation. I often see left leaning posters on MN make assertions about the political leanings of someone they don't agree with and then I have to go and check what I thought I knew.

Perhaps OP should tell her friend she is mistaken.

Doesn't look very right wing, does he ?

www.opensocietyfoundations.org/who-we-are

Doesn't look very right wing, does he ?

Not from where I'm sitting but maybe he identifies as right wing

@Fluffymule

I pretty sure I made myself clear, imo a tory is someone who is paid member of the conservative party.

your a voter, why are you acting like its a football team your supporting?

saying your a socialist or capitalist is fine, thats not the same, you might vote for any number of parties that support your views that are either socialist or capitalist.

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid, as I said before johnson wouldnt piss on you if you was on fire, if they bulldozed all the houses on your road to build a motorway do you think they'd care how any of the residents had voted?

no of course they wouldnt so why are you counting yourself as one of them? when I start talking about my political leanings I say I am a socialist or I am a lefty, I dont say I am the Labour party, I have voted for them more often then not, but I have also not voted for them, like now under starmer I wont touch them and I didnt vote for blair either, because I'm a socialist.

I am not 'stupid' VelvetChairGirl, nor did I say that I am a Tory - you may wish to read my post again for clarification.

My post simply stated that I found name slinging, much like calling people 'stupid', to be unhelpful whatever political or ideological position people fling their insults from.

But I am not flinging them at people I am flinging them at the sodding politicians that gave us austerity and brexit.

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid

Velvetchair you are calling the poster ‘stupid’ here, not Tory politicians.

@Minutewaltz

claiming your a tory or more exactly taken affront at people insulting tories is stupid

Velvetchair you are calling the poster ‘stupid’ here, not Tory politicians.

yes taking affront at people insulting tories is stupid, its like taking a front at people insulting the police when your not a police officer, just because you pay your taxes and some of them go to the police.

I know just what you mean, OP, and it's so frustrating. I don't think it's just the women. I was in the LP for a bit. I finally left over Cervixgate but long before then I'd got really hacked off with fellow comrades who referred to people who slightly disagreed with them as "the Right" with venom.
There are a couple of (male) friends of mine on FB who regularly post things like "I'd rather be woke than an ignorant fucking retard" etc etc. I think that the venom of lefties for those with whom they disagree is their current Achilles heel. To win elections you have to come across as likeable, and you don't if you're bashing your fellow party members over the head all the time.

"I'd rather be woke than an ignorant fucking retard"

They use the r word in a sentence where they describe themselves as woke?

Satire surely?

The Conservative party have been the leading party, running the country for the last 12 years. If you have any questions about the running of the country for the last 12 years, address it to them, as they have been the people in charge, making the rules.

@smithsinarazz

I know just what you mean, OP, and it's so frustrating. I don't think it's just the women. I was in the LP for a bit. I finally left over Cervixgate but long before then I'd got really hacked off with fellow comrades who referred to people who slightly disagreed with them as "the Right" with venom. There are a couple of (male) friends of mine on FB who regularly post things like "I'd rather be woke than an ignorant fucking retard" etc etc. I think that the venom of lefties for those with whom they disagree is their current Achilles heel. To win elections you have to come across as likeable, and you don't if you're bashing your fellow party members over the head all the time.

There is something about the modern left that seems to be exclusively interested in screaming invective directly into other people's faces from about an inch away. The more ludicrous the position, the more aggressive the shouting has to be.

It's so tiresome to see the same person who says they are so supportive of bodily autonomy and consent to then turn around and call you a stupid fucking bitch for saying that you don't want to have sex with a transperson.

All that the left needed to do on the TWAW issue was say "A woman is an adult human female, but transpeople still deserve respect and support". But instead they go with the constant screaming. As if that will convince anyone.

when I say the tories are scum I am talking about tories, mogg, johnson etc.

if your a voter who gets offended I would be looking at myself hard in the mirror and asking why I identify as a tory?

Thank you @VelvetChairGirl. You illustrate my point perfectly. You are a left wing woman who abuses Conservative voters and politicians by calling them scum. You speak without nuance, moderation or qualification.
And like all abusers, whether it be in a domestic situation or a wider setting, you believe that your insults and denigration are perfectly acceptable because the abused brought it on themselves by failing to check their language and behaviour to suit your ideas and beliefs.
Why not dare to broaden your horizons and engage with people who have different ideas and philosophies rather than shut them down.