Male, Female & Transgender/non-binary Sport categories

[Knittingchamp]

Clearly it makes no sense for transgender athletes to compete against women given the unfair advantage of having gone through puberty, regardless of their current testosterone levels. It makes a mockery of a life spent Training to compete at elite level for countless women. Does it not make more sense to add a third category in sport that is completely separate - transgender?

To me this absolutely is exclusion. Trans people aren't a different sex, they are either male or female like the rest of us. An open category plus a female category would offer a way forward.

Perhaps when you decide you're going to start inflicting totally unnecessary hormones and medication on your body and potentially having unalterable, unnecessary surgery, then that's the point when you decide to give up competitive sports. People give up careers and pastimes for a variety of reasons - this would seem to be a very obvious reason to do so.

A separate category is definitely needed.

Call it whatever, but males shouldn’t be competing in female categories - and females on medication that gives them any advantage over non-medicated females shouldn’t be competing with females either.

It is obvious that those who identify as transgender should fight for their own category and services, but as certain people wish to perpetuate the fantasy that feelings are more important than biological sex I can't see this happening.

I just don't see that putting transwomen and transmen in the same category -if that's what you're thinking - solves much.

An open category plus a female category would offer a way forward

Yes i think this could be a good idea

The answer would be

Male
Female
Trans Male
Trans female

@Nidan2Sandan

The answer would be

Male
Female
Trans Male
Trans female

It'd be interesting if they had one single category for both TM and TW.

I predict TW would still dominate despite their reduced testosterone.

ot make more sense to add a third category in sport that is completely separate - transgender?

surely it would be a fourth category? as we have the para olympics

Women who were coercively doped with testosterone by communist regimes didn't achieve male scores. Male and female are developmental pathways that affect the entire body, we're not Lego figures.

@PermanentTemporary

Women who were coercively doped with testosterone by communist regimes didn't achieve male scores. Male and female are developmental pathways that affect the entire body, we're not Lego figures.

Quite! Jarmila Kratochvilova 800m womens record the longest standing female world record set in 1983 is 1.53.28. She is widely believed to have been doped though she denies it. David rudisha mens 800metres is 1.40.91

@Nidan2Sandan

The answer would be

Male
Female
Trans Male
Trans female

How would this work without any chance of there ever being a definition of what a "trans" person is?

The intense homophobia that exists in men's sport needs to get gone. Still as far as I know not a single out gay professional footballer in the UK. And even though sexuality and gender nonconformity aren't the same, homophobia and transphobia aren't very subtly distinguished in sport.

That would mean two sporting categories based on sex and one - possibly two - on gender. I'm not sure about that. I think an open and a female category might work better - I understand some of the categories we currently consider 'mens' are already open?

I''ll tell you what else I'd like to see: more sportsmen declaring that transwomen would be welcome in their team.

It's only just occurred to me - wouldn't the entire male/female sports classification be 'transphobic' because it arguably negates non-binary people? Why aren't trans groups arguing for the classification to be done away with entirely as it quite clearly excludes a proportion of people who identify as trans? Does make me wonder if it's more about ensuring biological men, presenting as whatever gender they chose, can continue to do whatever they want.

I'm happy with just male and female categories so long as trans women compete in the male sex category and trans men compete in the female sex category (assuming that they aren't on testosterone)

In the Paralympics there are classifications- impaired muscle power etc. Could we follow the Paralympics example and set classifications reflecting the advantages that a male bodied trans athlete would have. This could allow Trans athletes to compete in their chosen category but would level the playing field for women athletes and ensure a fair competition?

Enough of the crap.

Male and female categories.
Compete against your own sex. Not good enough to compete against your own sex or if you choose to take drugs that will lessen your performance or give you an unnatural advantage in your own sex class. Tough shit.

I see this thread got moved from chat into the naughty corner. >eyeroll

Male and female (ie bio sex, any identity) or the probably more diplomatic Female and Open, with Female being for any bio female including non-binary and non-testosterone taking TMs, then Open being all bio males and anyone else who doesn’t qualify as female or does qualify but wants to compete in the Not Female category for whatever reason.

@Mysteryclub

In the Paralympics there are classifications- impaired muscle power etc. Could we follow the Paralympics example and set classifications reflecting the advantages that a male bodied trans athlete would have. This could allow Trans athletes to compete in their chosen category but would level the playing field for women athletes and ensure a fair competition?

No. Women are not impaired men.

I mean, if you wanted to explore that route it'd have to be TW getting an adjustment for impaired muscle power vs their pre-transition performance but still in in the male category.

Sports are divided by sex, not 'gender', because humans are dimorphic.

@PermanentTemporary

I just don't see that putting transwomen and transmen in the same category -if that's what you're thinking - solves much.

All of the points made in this thread are great.

@PermanentTemporary, I'd assume a transwomen and transmen category would both be needed as opposed to one trans category, because of the level playing field concept (or as close as you can get to a level playing field anyway, given the usual differences we see in technology, training, resources, nutrition, etc between individuals and teams).

[quote ZaraSizeMedium]I see this thread got moved from chat into the naughty corner. >eyeroll

OP let's call a spade a spade, it's unfair for men to compete with women in women's sport.

Whatever you do to your body, you are ultimately always male or female. In the cases of Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges what they have done is very little.

Transgender is a kind term that most people would use, but I think it confuses the sports thing to just not go to basic facts.