Male, Female & Transgender/non-binary Sport categories

[Knittingchamp]

Clearly it makes no sense for transgender athletes to compete against women given the unfair advantage of having gone through puberty, regardless of their current testosterone levels. It makes a mockery of a life spent Training to compete at elite level for countless women. Does it not make more sense to add a third category in sport that is completely separate - transgender?

@ErrolTheDragon

That’s not my point. That women are impaired men. My point, is the advantages that a male bodied person would have would be acknowledged and set against the bar of a female athlete. For example, in a swim race there could be added seconds onto the trans athletes time to reflect that inherent advantages they possess.

It could even mean, that trans athletes compete against the swim time female athletes set but the actual race takes place separately from the female race. Their times compared once adjusted.

It point is the measure is set by women and the adjustments would have to made by the trans athletes.

@PermanentTemporary

The intense homophobia that exists in men's sport needs to get gone. Still as far as I know not a single out gay professional footballer in the UK. And even though sexuality and gender nonconformity aren't the same, homophobia and transphobia aren't very subtly distinguished in sport.

Justin Fashanu.

@PermanentTemporary

To me this absolutely is exclusion. Trans people aren't a different sex, they are either male or female like the rest of us. An open category plus a female category would offer a way forward.

I like the idea of an open category in lots of ways However I think this could also be damaging to women's sport. Calling something an open category just makes it seem more prestigious and make women's sport seem less important as, in theory, women could compete in the open. Obviously women's sport already has this problem to a huge extent and I worry that this would only exacerbate this problem

I like the idea of an open category in lots of ways
However I think this could also be damaging to women's sport. Calling something an open category just makes it seem more prestigious and make women's sport seem less important as, in theory, women could compete in the open. Obviously women's sport already has this problem to a huge extent and I worry that this would only exacerbate this problem

I agree. Also, this solution wouldn't be acceptable for the transgender activists. I am pretty certain about that. So it is a no-starter, given that they currently have the upper hand.

Justin Fashanu

There is no one currently out in the UK. Josh Cavallo is out playing in Australia’s top flight football league and has received homophobic abuse for it.

Fashanu was subjected to homophobic abuse throughout his life and committed suicide, so not exactly a beacon for male sport inclusivity.

I agree that an open category is a concession with a risk of devaluing women's sport. It is, however, not a lie. The current situation cannot stand.

There is of course also the issue of how results in the open category are reported... 'fastest woman' etc.... but that's another thing.

I'd favour female and open. Where female means no Y chromosome. And the efforts made to improve diversity in sport focus on making the open category inclusive and welcoming to all, rather than on allowing males into the female category.

There's the issue in a lot of sports that the athletes affect each other- eg in all water sports including swimming, rowing, the advantage of being at the front with undisturbed water is known. So having differecategories racing together has an impact.

@Musomama1

OP let's call a spade a spade, it's unfair for men to compete with women in women's sport.

Whatever you do to your body, you are ultimately always male or female. In the cases of Lia Thomas and Emily Bridges what they have done is very little.

Transgender is a kind term that most people would use, but I think it confuses the sports thing to just not go to basic facts.

I 100% agree, but for me it's more how to tackle the reality of this new move to allow transgender athletes into women's sport...if that's the reality we have to face (unbelievable to even be having this conversation), then a transgender category seems the only viable alternative. It's so ridiculous to mix transgender and female sport - makes a joke out of the concept of a level playing field and we all only need a basic course in biology to know that. A transgender category (separate male and female) could be a space for everything transgender.

That’s not my point. That women are impaired men. My point, is the advantages that a male bodied person would have would be acknowledged and set against the bar of a female athlete.

But it would be the inevitable effect. Better (for women) to stick with reality - suppressing testosterone etc may impair transwomen relative to men but they're still males. We don't have male and female categories merely as social groupings, it's fundamentally because we have 2 dimorphic sexes.

Female athletes routinely have to make hard life choices particularly around their fertility and when/whether to have kids. Serious trans male athletes can do similar - Jenner was an outstanding athlete and then medically transitioned afterwards.

@ErrolTheDragon

We know that biological men are not women. I understand the argument of not comparing apples and oranges. But Jacob Bronowski also tells us that science seeks to order and categorise. That Newton found a way to group an apple and the moon.
This way would allow those with a Trans identity (which they believe to be female) to come under the category of female sport but that the bar set is by the female sex. Delayed starts, seconds added, we see from the paralympics how to level the field.
It could also mean that a trans athlete coming under the female sports category doesn’t necessary race directly against females. It’s the time recorded and adjusted to see where they place.
I’m not saying this is the answer, but it’s an option. What is happening right now to women in sport can’t continue. We need to come up with options that are palatable for all

@ErrolTheDragon

That’s not my point. That women are impaired men. My point, is the advantages that a male bodied person would have would be acknowledged and set against the bar of a female athlete.

But it would be the inevitable effect. Better (for women) to stick with reality - suppressing testosterone etc may impair transwomen relative to men but they're still males. We don't have male and female categories merely as social groupings, it's fundamentally because we have 2 dimorphic sexes.

Female athletes routinely have to make hard life choices particularly around their fertility and when/whether to have kids. Serious trans male athletes can do similar - Jenner was an outstanding athlete and then medically transitioned afterwards.

I completely agree with this and Jenner is a good case in point of someone who put off medicalisation.

Like you say women have to make life altering sacrifices like postponing having families or risking having them altogether. Which I think is a bigger deal than whether or not to pop a pill.

I think Jenner stopped taking estrogen to pursue his relationship and have a family with Kris Jenner. Again, family reasons, it's notable he transitioned when their kids had grown up.

I’d say men and womens (XY and XX respectively).
Or open and womens.

I'd assume a transwomen and transmen category would both be needed as opposed to one trans category

As you say, an open category would exclude T-taking transmen from sports competition unless there were yet another division which this creation of new divisions had been intended as a solution. Where would NBs compete?

Transmen can sometimes get a therapeutic use exemption for testosterone at the moment when competing in men's categories. However, yes they might need to choose between testosterone and sporting competition.

science seeks to order and categorise.

There's a perfectly clear scientific categorisation already. Your ideas may strive to be kind to transwomen but they aren't good for women, and only a partial solution. They wouldn't work for contact sports. It would be hard to assess the different factors of male vs female frames/development/basic biochemistry ... much better to compare different types of apples and then make the adjustments from there.
We really just need to be clear - sport isn't gendered, it's sexed. Sorry, everyone can't have everything they want.

Where would NBs compete?
In the female+ open - exactly the same as anyone else of their sex (assuming unmedicalised). Their gender or lack thereof is irrelevant.

Presumably transmen can't compete anywhere as the level of artificial testosterone would exclude them from competing in the male category?

On another note there used to be campaigns for open categories to allow drug using - effectively an anything goes category

Where would NBs compete
Where they compete at the moment. As far as I know no non binary person born female competes with men and vice versa. They seem to be quite happy to compete with members of their own biological sex.

I think we’d need three categories - men’s, women’s AND open because I also don’t think it’s fair to ask men to rugby tackle, box, go all out in professional sport etc with females (especially pregnant females) who identify as men.

We’ve already seen pregnant women giving birth not realising they are pregnant and also serving on the front line of war zones at 8m pregnant. We know that the menopause affects women physically. Sex matters.

[quote Mysteryclub]@ErrolTheDragon

We know that biological men are not women. I understand the argument of not comparing apples and oranges. But Jacob Bronowski also tells us that science seeks to order and categorise. That Newton found a way to group an apple and the moon.
This way would allow those with a Trans identity (which they believe to be female) to come under the category of female sport but that the bar set is by the female sex. Delayed starts, seconds added, we see from the paralympics how to level the field.
It could also mean that a trans athlete coming under the female sports category doesn’t necessary race directly against females. It’s the time recorded and adjusted to see where they place.
I’m not saying this is the answer, but it’s an option. What is happening right now to women in sport can’t continue. We need to come up with options that are palatable for all[/quote]
How would that even begin to work in team sports or in contact sports. Do we tell a man they can box against a woman as long as they don't hit too hard?
When a male in the female category loses by .5 of a second will they be happy or will they complain that their delayed start penalty was too harsh and actually they should have started a second early and therefore won by .5 of a second. Separated by sex is the only way to maintain safety and fairness.

@334bu

*Where would NBs compete* Where they compete at the moment. As far as I know no non binary person born female competes with men and vice versa. They seem to be quite happy to compete with members of their own biological sex.

NY Marathon. Predictable winners in the NB category.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4413181-Non-binary-runner-at-NYC-marathon

@Runningupthecurtains
@ErrolTheDragon

It’s a valid point that this wouldn’t work with contact sports.

@Runningupthecurtains
An argument about a trans athlete complaining that they have lost by.5 secs, I’m not sure how likely this is to be. Categories would have to be established at the outset and their implications understood. I’m not sure how many results in the Paralympics are contested because of the categories each athlete is placed in and what impact that has on their result.

If the ultimate goal is sports defined by sex. That women only complete against women, then how do we get there? Because right now women and girls places are being taken by biological males. Their scholarships and podium places taken from them. The reality is, right now there is not enough trans athletes to develop separate leagues/races across all sports. This could be seen as an intermediary step, to accommodate trans athletes until each sport can move forward and develop trans only leagues. It means right now, we could be making rules that makes sport fairer for women. It’s not prefect but can be seen as part of a bigger movement to separate trans sports.

@Mysteryclub
We need to back away from trying to accommodate male bodies in female sport. It's not safe, it's not fair. We don't need to tie ourselves in knots trying to be accommodating. If we went with your handicap plan and said well the women's record for X event is Y% slower than the men's record would we give men a Y% handicap or would we subtract something to account for reducing testosterone or the use of female hormones? If a new women's record is set that reduces the gap between the male and female records would a trans competitor in that race then be give a revised time? Or any trans competitor in the discipline? Will the handicap be fixed at the same for all events and reflect aboard average even if this means in some event men competing will have an advantage? It's would need to be horribly complex and still doesn't address team sports or contact sport. The very simple solution is sport needs to be separated by sex - if those who feels their gender if different to their sex don't want to compete in their sex class they need to create their own category.

A non-binary category would just end up as a category for shitter males with no shame. The winners would all be biologically male for the same reason that female sports need protecting. And those males would almost certainly all just be, in races, doing times slower than the top 50 or so males but get a medal because they are so special. It would be a joke.

It would be like this joke the New York marathon made of itself by giving a mediocre man a special award, as First Place - NB, even though his time was a full hour behind the man who came third but identified as a man.
www.outsports.com/2021/11/17/22785781/nyc-marathon-2021-zackary-harris-non-binary