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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

EHRC single sex guidance out

471 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2022 11:19

Here: www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

I'm off to read it...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
AniseDanehill · 05/04/2022 11:07

Repeal the GRA!!
It's the only solution.
The wrong modal verb in the EHRC guidance; it shouldn't be service providers CAN offer single sex services to protect privacy, dignity and safety. It should be they MUST.

Manderleyagain · 05/04/2022 11:07

Those who are criticising the guidence by saying it is unlawful, I think are basing it on the following:
It's guidemce, not the law (true)
It is not compatible with the statutory code which is the law

  • Because it doesn't mention 'case by case'
  • and because it reverses the previous situation which they got from the statutory code which was that the starting point should be to include trans women in female only spaces, and then only exclude on individual case by case basis.
-it lowers the bar for exclusion (to proportionate means to a legitimate aim) compared to their previous reading of the statutory code & EA.

So they think it's unlawful & won't stand up in court, and services should continue to follow the previous readings/interpretations of the statutory code that they approve of.

Whether theu really think that or are just saying it I don't know.

Fox killer doesn't think the judicial review is a goer, and they dhould sue over specific cases where the guidemve was followed instead.

I think we have to be prepared to sue where this guidence was ignored.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 05/04/2022 11:07

@DisgustedofManchester

Trans women and cis women have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely. This advice will actually cause anyone who tries to exclude a trans person without a legitimate aim ( other than someone just doesnlt like it ) to end up falling foul of the Equality Act. The EHRC are giving advice which if followed could be illegal. What with its racism and ableism the EHRC is just a Tory propaganda machine now
You have participated in many threads on the assertion you make.

Your interpretation and perspective are mistaken (as is your assertion).

I will always find it fascinating that nobody not even you ever asserts, TM and men have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely —I wonder why that is.

Manderleyagain · 05/04/2022 11:08

Sorry about typos.

YesSheCan · 05/04/2022 11:09

Long time lurker, don't usually comment as chronic illness and often don't feel articulate enough or have enough energy to join the discussion. But just listened to Emma Barnett interviewing Baroness Falkner on WH and was a bit disappointed that BF could have been a lot clearer about the EHRC guidance, which I have read through.

This is what I understood, from the EHRC guidance, could apply to the changing rooms question:

A gym can lawfully choose to provide single-sex changing rooms on the basis of biological sex.

If it does this it needs to also consider how it will provide trans people with changing rooms they can use so they are not excluded from using the gym. The obvious solution would be to provide women-only, men-only and gender neutral changing rooms.

If anyone is encountered in the women-only changing room who is of the male sex, then it would be lawful of the gym staff to ask this person to leave the changing room. This is regardless of whether this person is trans or not and regardless of whether or not they have a GRC. No assumptions should be made about whether or not a male person in the women's changing room is trans based on how they present and the person should not be asked to provide evidence of a GRC - this is irrelevant because all people of the male sex can be lawfully excluded from the female sex only area.

In practice I can see how this might sometimes be challenging for service providers to implement and so some additional guidance on how to do so might be useful.

Have I understood the guidance correctly?

Swayingpalmtrees · 05/04/2022 11:09

Trans women and cis women have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely

I don't recognise the word cis. We will stick with women thanks all the same disgustedofManchester and no we have not been 'sharing' space safely for decades at all, this only become an issue a few years ago, and since then we have a spate of rapes in prisons, on hospital wards etc.

Women are entitled to safe space to change, use the lavatory, to recover from rape or domestic violence or an operation.
Unisex options will be available to the trans community, so that their rights to dignity and privacy may also be respected, I think it is an excellent landing of compromise and one I support whole heartedly.

I will feel far more comfortable once we have sorted out the sports situation next, and we may return to a civilised society again that is fair and safe for all.

Waitwhat23 · 05/04/2022 11:12

You mean transwomen were accessing single sex spaces they were not entitled to access due to their sex (as per the exemptions in the Equality Act 2010, so at least the last 12 years) and want to continue to ignore women's boundaries by ignoring both the Equalities Act and the latest guidance?

I would say, for example, a rape crisis service offering a single sex group (and which example is specifically stated in the exemptions) to be a legitimate aim but services are currently disregarding this in favour of a dangerous ideology. Thanks to the EHRC for backing up the existing Equality Act!

PrelateChuckles · 05/04/2022 11:32

Trans women and cis women have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely

Did you word this deliberately so that the 10-year-old child attacked by the trans woman in the single-sex toilets 'doesn't count' as they aren't a 'cis woman'?

You seem very confused, Disgusted. "This advice will actually cause anyone who tries to exclude a trans person without a legitimate aim ( other than someone just doesnlt like it ) to end up falling foul of the Equality Act. "

Where does the EHRC advice say you can 'exclude a trans person without a legitimate aim'?

You have an odd definition of 'safely'.

yourhairiswinterfire · 05/04/2022 11:38

Trans women and cis women have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely.

''Safely''. Yes, if you completely ignore incidents that have happened, and call women who are assaulted or raped liars (which you have done previously on this feminist board, twice). You also said on the MoJ judicial review thread that it's the ''right decision'' to lock rapists up with women...

So yeah...I think your definition of 'safely' differs from ours.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 05/04/2022 11:46

Any woman who identifies as ‘cis’ (stupid word) is likely to subscribe to gender ideology & not mind mixed sex spaces. In which case they’d have the choice between unisex and female-only.

MaMaLa321 · 05/04/2022 11:56

Surely this puts all the onus on the individual organisations. It reads to me that each organisation will have to make a case to exclude TW, doing a cost/benefit analysis for all users. So that the default position is that TW have to be admitted unless a case can be made for them to be excluded.
Will this work? How many places just aren't equipped to do this, or even willing?
Am I reading this right when I think that this is trying to correct the result of ill-thought-out legislation in the GRA, when it would just be better to repeal it? Is there any political push to do that?

CarbonelCat · 05/04/2022 11:57

The examples given in this document are so so clear.

How can the prison service defend the situations they have put vulnerable women in?

nauticant · 05/04/2022 11:57

In the UK, 5000 transsexuals in 2003 vs 300,000 trans people now. Who are the extra 295,000? Women weren't sharing with the males of that particular group before.

Deliriumoftheendless · 05/04/2022 12:01

It’s not worth arguing with Disgusting- just point out his woman hating bullshit isn’t listened to here. Just like every other bullshitting MRA.

Manderleyagain · 05/04/2022 12:10

@Manderleyagain

Those who are criticising the guidence by saying it is unlawful, I think are basing it on the following: It's guidemce, not the law (true) It is not compatible with the statutory code which is the law
  • Because it doesn't mention 'case by case'
  • and because it reverses the previous situation which they got from the statutory code which was that the starting point should be to include trans women in female only spaces, and then only exclude on individual case by case basis.
-it lowers the bar for exclusion (to proportionate means to a legitimate aim) compared to their previous reading of the statutory code & EA.

So they think it's unlawful & won't stand up in court, and services should continue to follow the previous readings/interpretations of the statutory code that they approve of.

Whether theu really think that or are just saying it I don't know.

Fox killer doesn't think the judicial review is a goer, and they dhould sue over specific cases where the guidemve was followed instead.

I think we have to be prepared to sue where this guidence was ignored.

Just quoting myself to add something. The other reason they claim it's unlawful is because it states that sex in the EA refers to biological sex. That someone who was born male and has no grc remains male under the p/c of sex, even though they might have the additional p/c of gender reassignment. They think the public boards Scotland case was wrong on this point and should have been appealed. It's worth noting that so far the sensible responses by specialist lawyers under their own name (rather than anon accounts that claim to be lawyers, or lawyers posting memes) all seem to think it's a fair interpretation of the law.

I would be interested to read a specialist discrimination lawyer who disagrees with the guidence.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/04/2022 12:12

What Delirium said.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 05/04/2022 12:14

It's guidemce, not the law (true)

As was the earlier guidance which they were quite happy to point to when it suited.

OldCrone · 05/04/2022 12:14

@PrelateChuckles

Trans women and cis women have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely

Did you word this deliberately so that the 10-year-old child attacked by the trans woman in the single-sex toilets 'doesn't count' as they aren't a 'cis woman'?

You seem very confused, Disgusted. "This advice will actually cause anyone who tries to exclude a trans person without a legitimate aim ( other than someone just doesnlt like it ) to end up falling foul of the Equality Act. "

Where does the EHRC advice say you can 'exclude a trans person without a legitimate aim'?

You have an odd definition of 'safely'.

Link to article about transgender sex offender who sexually assaulted a 10-year-old girl in a supermarket toilet.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6814599/Transgender-woman-18-sexually-assaulted-girl-10-Morrisons-female-toilets.html

Disgusted does have an odd definition of 'safely'.

Datun · 05/04/2022 12:17

@YesSheCan

Long time lurker, don't usually comment as chronic illness and often don't feel articulate enough or have enough energy to join the discussion. But just listened to Emma Barnett interviewing Baroness Falkner on WH and was a bit disappointed that BF could have been a lot clearer about the EHRC guidance, which I have read through.

This is what I understood, from the EHRC guidance, could apply to the changing rooms question:

A gym can lawfully choose to provide single-sex changing rooms on the basis of biological sex.

If it does this it needs to also consider how it will provide trans people with changing rooms they can use so they are not excluded from using the gym. The obvious solution would be to provide women-only, men-only and gender neutral changing rooms.

If anyone is encountered in the women-only changing room who is of the male sex, then it would be lawful of the gym staff to ask this person to leave the changing room. This is regardless of whether this person is trans or not and regardless of whether or not they have a GRC. No assumptions should be made about whether or not a male person in the women's changing room is trans based on how they present and the person should not be asked to provide evidence of a GRC - this is irrelevant because all people of the male sex can be lawfully excluded from the female sex only area.

In practice I can see how this might sometimes be challenging for service providers to implement and so some additional guidance on how to do so might be useful.

Have I understood the guidance correctly?

Yes, that's correct. And this was always the problem.

Historically, men did not enter women's spaces because custom, protocols and the culture made it taboo. Every woman would turn around and make it socially unacceptable. So if it ever did happen, the consensus would be an assumption of nefarious intent.

Stonewall and transactivists have managed to turn that around, to make it socially and culturally unacceptable to challenge a man. So now they are fully comfortable (see Manchester above), with violating boundaries, and going against what women want, with a 'well what you gonna do about it' attitude.

Saying we won't be able to get rid of someone, is admitting that the person will not self censor, because they don't think they should, they should be allowed to dominate women (again, see disgustedofManchester above).

The reason why Baroness Faulkner is struggling, is because the GRA, followed with relentless campaigning by transactivists, have allowed a loophole that is incredibly difficult to close, when you're faced with someone who refuses to acknowledge women's rights.

The idea that men could identify as women and have access to all women's spaces is where it all went wrong. (I mean, I have to say, it's so blisteringly fucking obvious where that would go wrong, it's difficult to believe any human being stupid enough to allow it.)

It's bad law. It should be repealed. And the debate should be had that no one who is not a woman should be in women's spaces, and anyone can be challenged.

If a man doesn't want to be in a male space, then that's where the discussion should lead. To a gender neutral space. It should be irrelevant to women's spaces.

Meanwhile, we can challenge men whenever we see them in the wrong space, and turn it around to make it culturally unacceptable again.

Lovelyricepudding · 05/04/2022 12:24

Disgusted can you quote the bit that you think contravenes the Equality Act and explain why by referencing the act itself?

334bu · 05/04/2022 12:26

As a man I wonder how Disgusted knows that women and males who identify as women have been sharing spaces for decades?

OatSprout · 05/04/2022 12:27

Datun you are always so clear on this and refuse to have your mind bent by the irrational and flawed utterings of others. Thank you! ⭐️ ⭐️ ⭐️

Manderley

Those who are criticising the guidence by saying it is unlawful, I think are basing it on the following:

I think those people are criticising it because they have a poor grasp of logic, reason, law and the English language and the Stonewall agenda tempted those who want to feel like heroes when in fact they are way, way out of their depth.

NotBadConsidering · 05/04/2022 12:35

@334bu

As a man I wonder how Disgusted knows that women and males who identify as women have been sharing spaces for decades?
Because he has a trans wife, so no doubt has heard all the times his wife has infringed on women’s boundaries.
crumpet · 05/04/2022 12:36

The issue is that now it has been clarified that organisations can create single sex spaces legally (proportionate/legitimate etc etc), we now have to encourage organisations to WANT to create those single sex spaces…

tabbycatstripy · 05/04/2022 12:46

Maugham calling women racists again:

‘I tweeted about it yesterday (twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/…) and we are taking advice from Counsel. Some of the logic is v problematic - eg once upon a time lots of white women didn't like sharing toilets with black women and would steer clear of places that had mixed race toilets...’

Yes, Jolyon, but when the same toilets (rightly) were able to serve the needs of both black people and white people, they still weren’t mixed sex.

Also, I think men made those laws.