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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

EHRC single sex guidance out

471 replies

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 04/04/2022 11:19

Here: www.equalityhumanrights.com/en/advice-and-guidance/separate-and-single-sex-service-providers-guide-equality-act-sex-and-gender

I'm off to read it...

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
LizzieSiddal · 05/04/2022 08:54

If that were to be done, I wonder if it would be better as a coalition of the women's organisations that asked for signatories?

Good idea, as is contacting the Baroness and also Savid Javid.

I dearly hope Labour front bench spent last night reading and digesting this guidance. Can’t wait to hear their response to it.

thirdfiddle · 05/04/2022 08:57

As for quibbling about the legal definition of male and female. Up to 5 minutes ago "nobody was claiming TW were female", "nobody was saying sex and gender were the same thing".

Downright ridiculous to grab those terms too and claim legislation written over 10 years ago intended them in any sense other than the biological.

EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn · 05/04/2022 09:01

This means that if you see someone who is obviously male, but they are wearing a dress/heels/make-up, then the Equality Act will support you in regarding them as a man until you they give you a specific reason to think they are trans.

That’s an excellent point. Pink ribbons, gold lame pocketbooks & a taste for makeup & heels do not make someone a woman.

Datun · 05/04/2022 09:04

@thirdfiddle

Seems to me that what it's saying is have a specific policy around which facility trans people can use, make it clear and be prepared to justify it.

I would further suggest that given properly sampled national surveys show majority think it's unacceptable for TW pre surgery to share women's facilities, and it is not legal to discriminate between pre and post surgery, it is not hard to justify the need for single sex.

Unfortunately it's liable to be challenged in court when individual facilities want to do this and that will be too expensive for many particularly smaller providers to take on. Or indeed just the public bullying when we're talking charities and small businesses. What we need is a large national organisation prepared to take a stand and defend it.

Yes. Bullying individual providers needs to stop.
Enough4me · 05/04/2022 09:09

We seem to have moved onto gender=sex, so the EHRC now need to reference 'biological sex'.

Will men who think that they feel like a woman (which cannot happen as women is not a feeling) at some point push for medical records to say XX to define as biologically women?

It's denial of material reality and in any other situation the deluded person would receive help to accept the truth.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 05/04/2022 09:18

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

This means that if you see someone who is obviously male, but they are wearing a dress/heels/make-up, then the Equality Act will support you in regarding them as a man until you they give you a specific reason to think they are trans.

That’s an excellent point. Pink ribbons, gold lame pocketbooks & a taste for makeup & heels do not make someone a woman.

For anyone unfamiliar with the gold lamé bag reference:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3541185--I-have-a-handbag-therefore-I-am-a-woman

MrsOvertonsWindow · 05/04/2022 09:22

Bullying individual providers needs to stop.

It would also be good if the witch finder generals would stop bullying individual women as well.

CarbonelCat · 05/04/2022 09:27

The list of retweeters is genuinely terrifying. I mean, I know me being upset or hurt or scared is of no relevance at all because I'm not a man, but I do have all of those feelings, reading that midwives, nurses, equality professionals in NHS trusts, doctors, psychiatrists, union officials, MPs etc etc all adamantly support ignoring calm, rational, polite, considered guidance to safeguard women and balance needs and rights amongst minority groups.

Where does this leave women? Where does this leave people like me who may be pregnant and seeking midwifery services to be cared for by someone who stridently does not recognise my needs when vulnerable and seeks to subject me to treatment under a misrepresentation of the law that should protect me?

Also, are we not in purdah now? I work allied to the NHS and we've definitely had emails this week about political neutrality. How does retweeting this stuff (let alone the comments and vociferous opinions) stand with that? When you're clearly identifiable and trading off your professional registration and position in the health service for weight?

Slothtoes · 05/04/2022 09:28

So many good posts on here.
Thanks everyone.

The point about NHS officials publicly advocating for defying the law is shocking. Especially given elections upcoming.
This link is just the English NHS guidance, the other UK nations will have their own.

www.england.nhs.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/B1476-Updated-pre-election-guidance-for-NHS-organisations-spring-2022.pdf

Enough4me · 05/04/2022 09:30

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus oh shit, I'm not a woman. I mean I was born a girl, went through female puberty, stuck with a big bump bum and wide hips that helped get two DC out, but I don't own a golden bag. To really bring it home, I only own lip gloss and not lipstick.

I thought there may be an issue when men decided women was a feeling as I just feel like me. I don't make extra special effort to feel women. I put effort into feeling warmer when cold (wear a jumper). Maybe through the day I slip into a man feeling as I'm not guarding myself to keep up feelings.

I need some tips into finding what the woman feeling is and how to keep the feeling...is it like feeling hungry, tired?

I may need a man to pop in and mansplain it to me.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 05/04/2022 09:39

I work allied to the NHS and we've definitely had emails this week about political neutrality. How does retweeting this stuff (let alone the comments and vociferous opinions) stand with that? When you're clearly identifiable and trading off your professional registration and position in the health service for weight?

It's fine for MoJ to instruct Prison Officers to gaslight women in prison.

It's fine for the NHS to have the culture that supports the gaslighting of women patients, even for such a matter as this. Despite the 6 values of the NHS Constitution. These values that must run through every NHS employee from estates to clinical and AHP to board members and they're enforced during recruitment and in performance evaluation.

There are six values that all staff – everyone from porters, physiotherapists, nurses, paramedics and gardeners to secretaries, consultants, healthcare scientists and phlebotomists – are expected to demonstrate:

working together for patients Patients come first in everything we do

respect and dignity We value every person – whether patient, their families or carers, or staff – as an individual, respect their aspirations and commitments in life, and seek to understand their priorities, needs, abilities and limits

commitment to quality of care We earn the trust placed in us by insisting on quality and striving to get the basics of quality of care – safety, effectiveness and patient experience right every time

compassion We ensure that compassion is central to the care we provide and respond with humanity and kindness to each person’s pain, distress, anxiety or need

improving lives We strive to improve health and wellbeing and people’s experiences of the NHS

everyone counts We maximise our resources for the benefit of the whole community, and make sure nobody is excluded, discriminated against or left behind

www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/working-health/working-nhs/nhs-constitution

And, Nolan. Where are Nolan Principles in all of this?

Selflessness : Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.

Integrity : Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions in order to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.

Objectivity : Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

Accountability : Holders of public office are accountable to the public for their decisions and actions and must submit themselves to the scrutiny necessary to ensure this.

Openness : Holders of public office should act and take decisions in an open and transparent manner. Information should not be withheld from the public unless there are clear and lawful reasons for so doing.

Honesty : Holders of public office should be truthful.

Leadership : Holders of public office should exhibit these principles in their own behaviour. They should actively promote and robustly support the principles and be willing to challenge poor behaviour wherever it occurs.

Introduced in 1995 by the UK government, Committee on Standards in Public Life, these important values are enshrined in codes of conduct across the public sector, from schools and government departments to hospitals. In Scotland, the principles are extended further with two additional requirements:

Public Service : Holders of public office have a duty to act in the interests of the public body of which they are a board member and to act in accordance with the core tasks of the body.

Respect : Holders of public office must respect fellow members of their public body and employees of the body and the role they play, treating them with courtesy at all times

www.good-governance.org.uk/publications/insights/the-nolan-principles

nauticant · 05/04/2022 10:04

This is about to be discussed on Woman's Hour. Emma Barnett is in the chair.

MadnessOfHamsters · 05/04/2022 10:13

I’ve noticed that a fair few of those high up in the NHS who tweeted have now got their accounts locked down.

Do you reckon it might have dawned on them that publicly throwing a tantrum and declaring they will be ignoring guidance on the law wasn’t a fabulous idea?

Nice that they have realised now, but terrifying that they ever thought it was ok to do in the first place.

ScreamingMeMe · 05/04/2022 10:18

This is probably what happens when you spend all the money you could have spent on a decent pay rise for nurses on Equality and Diversity Managers at £300k a pop, I suppose.

nauticant · 05/04/2022 10:20

Baroness Falkner of EHRC talking about this now on WH.

CarbonelCat · 05/04/2022 10:26

Am just going into meetings - please update!

nauticant · 05/04/2022 10:30

EB is asking the relevant questions. How can a woman on the spot seek a remedy when the framework is that service providers can choose to or choose not to provide single sex spaces. EB asked what "trans" means according to the law and then it became too complicated to be of any use to the woman on the spot. Baroness Falkner was unable to say that even when there's a SSS policy, how a service provider can enforce it against a trespassing individual. EB: "Who is going to have a solicitor on speed-dial?"

This isn't Baroness Falkner's fault.

Clymene · 05/04/2022 10:33

This conversation is making it abundantly clear that the GRA needs to be repealed. It's an absolutely unworkable law which has led to endless problems.

nauticant · 05/04/2022 10:36

In a nutshell:

  • service providers don't need to provide single sex spaces
  • if they do provide such spaces, service providers don't need to have a policy in place for them to be used according to purpose
  • if they do have a policy, service providers can't enforce it especially when there is no way to check the trans status of any individual, both because GRCs cannot be requested and there is no common understanding of what "trans" means.
PrelateChuckles · 05/04/2022 10:38

@Manderleyagain

It's also clear from twitter that Ruth May Chief Nursing Officer England is being specifically lobbied to ignore this guidence. She is apparently leading a review of single sex wards etc in the NHS.
Why on earth is public money being spent on the obvious? What exactly is being reviewed?
DrBlackbird · 05/04/2022 10:40

This is being discussed on WH atm. It doesn’t seem all that clear cut given the points being raised by Emma. Single sex is lawful. I see that this helps those providing clearly single sex services such as rape relief services or refuges.

However, neither can a service provider ask a TW or TM for GRC… So what happens if someone expresses concern in any situation if, say, a TW is using a female spa? Or even in a rape relief discussion group?

This response is meant to ‘take the heat’ out of the debate, but does this mean that each provider will have to label spaces ‘single sex’ or ‘mixed sex’ to be clear about who has access?

I’ll have to read a legal perspective to understand it better.

Charley50 · 05/04/2022 10:42

@nauticant

Baroness Falkner of EHRC talking about this now on WH.
Just heard this and it was a shame it pussy-footed around, and seemed too much about 'trans rights.' As the first text mentioned, it is about women's and girl's rights to safety, privacy, dignity and equal representation. That should have been made clearer.
yourhairiswinterfire · 05/04/2022 11:04

Emma Hilton is on to the he/him HR guy.

She's written a quite personal thread explaining why.

twitter.com/FondOfBeetles/status/1511270225366462464?cxt=HHwWgMC96emQjvkpAAAA

EHRC single sex guidance out
EHRC single sex guidance out
DisgustedofManchester · 05/04/2022 11:04

Trans women and cis women have been sharing single sex spaces for decades safely. This advice will actually cause anyone who tries to exclude a trans person without a legitimate aim ( other than someone just doesnlt like it ) to end up falling foul of the Equality Act. The EHRC are giving advice which if followed could be illegal. What with its racism and ableism the EHRC is just a Tory propaganda machine now

Slothtoes · 05/04/2022 11:05

Agree GRA is a complete sexist mess and not fit for purpose.

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