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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Even Lord Winston is pulling punches now

52 replies

flyingbuttress43 · 03/04/2022 15:51

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuLt3x8tbEc

Lord Winston has been praised e.g. on Question Times for pulling no punches re changing sex e.g. sex is immutable.

But in this interview he seems he is pulling back from answering straight questions and changing the narrative. Weird. He demurred from answering 'what is a woman' by saying it was the wrong question to ask and went off at a tangent....

What's going on?

OP posts:
flyingbuttress43 · 03/04/2022 17:09

Sorry if I read it differently. I am a devil for wanting a straight question answered with a straight answer - comes from years I spent media training scientists.......you could see the interviewer having to semi interrupt to bring him back to the nub of the interview i.e.what is a woman?

I was waiting for him to give the straight answer and then expand into a little more detail i.e. to tailor his reply to the probably knowledge level of his audience, which may not be as extensive as the knowledge of posters on this forum. Horses for courses and all that....

I did, by the way, watch it through twice before posting.

Anyway, that's just my view....

OP posts:
flyingbuttress43 · 03/04/2022 17:12

BoreOfWhabylon. An interviewee saying that is the wrong question is normally what you expect a politician to say when they want to change the narrative - not a scientist. Grin

Anyway, I'll shut up now.

OP posts:
Justme56 · 03/04/2022 17:26

Having watched this to the end it’s really quite sad. Obviously he deals with fertility and having to tell people that what they have done to their bodies means that they are now infertile is obviously devastating. It really highlights how little information is given out and/or understood about the consequences of taking puberty blockers and hormones.

Neverreturntoathread · 03/04/2022 17:45

@borntobequiet

And interesting that he said mutilation. People have had strikes on here for using that word.

I thought so, which was why I avoided it.

Yup, I had a post deleted when I used that word. Although that was a year or tei ago and perhaps Mumsnet hq has thought this all through a bit more now.

I feel so sorry for anyone who puts themselves through these horrible surgeries 😔

Clymene · 03/04/2022 17:46

Having now watched the whole thing, I think he's being very clear. When people say TWAW, they (mostly) don't think that humans can change sex but that the word woman has become to mean gender rather than sex. But people confuse and conflate the two.

And that confusion is why some people don't seem to realise that mutilating their bodies will cause infertility

Mummyoflittledragon · 03/04/2022 17:58

I can understand why you say he didn’t come to the point.

He was interrupted and wasn’t able to make all the points he wanted to make. His aim was to explain the 5 ways of defining sex. The interviewer otoh had questions to answer. For me, there was a mismatch of expectations. The questions should have been given in advance perhaps.

I think he went into too much detail about point 1 - the visual characteristics. Then talked about point 2 genetic sex and chromosomes in relation to sport and was then posed other questions, which he answered fully but were not in relation to the 3 other ways of defining sex.

Can anyone tell me what the 5 ways of defining sex are btw?

yourhairiswinterfire · 03/04/2022 18:02

I typed the whole thing up and now see that people have already typed up some main bits. But my fingers are aching, so sod it, I'm posting it anyway Grin

Presenter: What is a woman then, how do we actually define a woman, a lot of politicians are struggling with this now.

Lord Winston: I don't think defining anybody is quite the right question to ask, I think what we need to ask is 'what is the fundamental difference between men and women, or between boys and girls, between the two sexes', and there are fundamental differences which are quite clear.

With regard to being a w- I think there's a bit of confusion here between sex, ones sex and ones gender, and of course gender reassignment is possible to have organs removed and other mutilations, including for example giving drugs which might change the way you feel and how your body behaves, but that's not the same as changing your sex. You can't change your sex, because your sex is defined in quite a different way.

There are 5 ways we can define sex, one of course is basically how we look, for example having sex organs, breasts, a penis, a uterus and so on. That's one way and that can be changed of course because you can actually remove breasts, remove a uterus, you can actually change the morphology, the shape of the human body by doing that, but of course it is a form of mutilation, doing that.

Presenter: On that point then about being able to recognise those differences by using your eyes, something I think we've done throughout the ages...on the issue about what's widely covered in the press about the participation of transwomen, or biological men, in women's sports, what are the physical elements that are...going through puberty as a biological male actually mean that you have a biological advantage over women in certain sports?

LW: Well that comes to...that's another definition of sex, basically. The key definition of sex is your genetic sex. Basically every single cell in your body is created by genes and is controlled by genes, so for example you have about 7 or 8 trillion cells in your body, and if you're a woman you have two X chromosomes with the female carrying characteristics, and if you are a male, or a boy, you have a Y chromosome which carries around 40 genes all of which indicate (?might have misheard 'indicate', sound went funny) your sex.

Now, you cannot change that by simply operating on somebody or giving them hormones, because you still have the Y chromosome. And so one of the risks in regards to sport is that somebody who has male characteristics will have been at some stage, from the time they were in the uterus onwards, associated with hormones which are gradually developing their musculature and other things which would clearly give them an advantage over a woman.

Now, even if you change the body after puberty, or in some cases even before puberty, the fact is it is probable you will have different characteristics as a result of that. Now, this issue is of course, nobody has ever done any proper research just to see how this is, and one of the difficulties is, because the whole issue of 'transgender' is so complex, and so much criticism as soon as you come on the media and mention that you believe the things that I am saying are biologically true, are scientifically certain. You come under immense criticism, so doctors and physiologists and myself tend to not put their head above the parapet. But actually, that's one of the reasons...

Presenter interrupting: And that is truly damaging for debate and speech, I mean you standing up in the House of Lords in the upper chamber, and saying that as part of the maternity bill when the attorney general would have had to resign in order to actually go on maternity leave, and part of this bill said 'pregnant people', if I've got that right, instead of women. See, I cannot get pregnant, for example, as you well know, so I want to just ask about that bill in particular, why do you think there has been this increase in this changing of language and words that have been accepted for many, many years in this country?

LW: I think there is pressure from the transgender community which is understandable. I have nothing against transgender people, they are perfectly welcome as far as I'm concerned to behave, or dress like a female or a male, that's entirely up to them. But there are certain things that they can't change, and one of the things you can't change is to actually have a baby- it's not possible for a male to have a baby. In fact, nobody has ever managed to do this although there have been many people who have changed their sex from female to male, who've subsequently as a fertility surgeon asked me if I would try and help them have a baby, I've had requests from males to have babies.

(I think above he may have been muddled and meant MtF have asked him to help them have a baby, not FtM judging by the next bit...)

LW: The only way you could do that would be by implanting an embryo directly into the abdomen, where of course it would grow rather like a tumour, and would risk the life of the individual, which is of course why nobody has done that...

Even transplanting a uterus, which is technically just possible, you might eventually be able to have somebody who is pregnant and male, but the risks would be so great that no surgeon, no doctor would contemplate it.

The other problem of course is this, that if 'transgender' is a normal procedure, then the question is should the NHS be expected to pay for this. Because if people in fact have a problem with their sex, to what extent is this an illness or is it just a condition they want to change? And the NHS, under pressure as it is, may decide of course that these are things it shouldn't be accomplishing. At the moment the NHS is also in a tangle with how they should handle people who are transgender, what sort of ward they should be in, and whether or not they should have the sort of hormones...

Now at the moment, an indication has gone out to GPs that they are allowed to give the hormones to change someone's hormonal state, at puberty. My own view is, I think this is quite dangerous, but it is something which is accepted in some quarters...

Presenter: Robert, I wonder if you've had any reflections, just briefly there because we're coming to the end, why do you think there have been massive increases... I left school in 2009, if you look at the %, the number of children who say they are experiencing gender dysphoria, there can't just have been a massive increase of people experiencing it, can there?

LW: We've always had that, I don't doubt that you, certainly I, and most normal males and normal females at some time have questioned their genitals and worried that they're not quite right. It's very, very common, and before puberty of course there is considerable confusion about ones sex, at a time when ones hormones are developing and one is changing into an adult. It is a massive time of considerable concern for everybody, it's quite usual.

Of course, the risk is that you can confuse that concern in to some status which it perhaps isn't. What I would want to say finally is I've seen so many people in my practice as a fertility specialist who desperately wanted a baby after a sex change, and found to their horror that it wasn't possible, and that's caused them immense distress and depression, and some have even tried to commit suicide. So I think it's a very, very serious issue.

Presenter: Yes, and I think we aren't talking about the risks and harms potentially imposed by medical intervention enough. Do you agree with that?

LW: Well I think that's one of the risks, but I think of course that what we've got to now is a situation of political correctness about the nature of gender, and I think that's not particularly satisfactory, because political correctness does not in fact get to the real truth of the issue.

Dinosauria · 03/04/2022 18:10

Thank you hairisfine I dislike watching videos due to poor hearing so really appreciate that you have taken the time to write it down.

highlights how little information is given out and/or understood about the consequences of taking puberty blockers and hormones. I was actually saddened when a TM didn't realise that they would no longer be able to breastfeed.

FemaleAndLearning · 03/04/2022 18:19

Interesting interview. He covered a lot of issues. Factual and biological and not at all transphobic.

PrelateChuckles · 03/04/2022 18:21

Thank you winterfire!

What I would want to say finally is I've seen so many people in my practice as a fertility specialist who desperately wanted a baby after a sex change, and found to their horror that it wasn't possible

I find it absolutely incredible that people don't know (and aren't told) about their chances of procreating after having any sort of physical treatment.

VelvetChairGirl · 03/04/2022 18:24

I am confused is the OP watching the same video as me?

Outwith · 03/04/2022 18:26

@nauticant

Watching this I'm finding what Lord Winston is saying to be very unlike how the OP described it.

After making the T**F-y comments he made in that interview, he might be hoping trans activists don't get hold of his address.

Well, that sounds vaguely threatening.
yourhairiswinterfire · 03/04/2022 18:26

I find it absolutely incredible that people don't know (and aren't told) about their chances of procreating after having any sort of physical treatment

Me too. What's happened to informed consent?

ImAvingOops · 03/04/2022 18:27

That sounds to me like TW has done his best to explain biological reality as opposed to gender preferences/choices

AngelinaFibres · 03/04/2022 18:31

@SamphiretheStickerist

Happily even a quick scan show him going right back to basics.

He does say that there hasn't been a huge amount of research into the magnitude of change that occurs at puberty, but that doesn't matter because, biology.

And more biology.

And then some more

Yes. He says what he has always said " you cannot change sex". " your chromosomes cannot change" " a male has all the biological advantages of being male from the uterus onwards"
borntobequiet · 03/04/2022 18:42

I’m sure he’s weary of having to explain the blindingly obvious over and over again.
The interviewer kept interrupting him with different questions which made it tricky. Actually the interviewer was OK but rather given to gesturing, on one occasion rather unfortunately.

FemaleAndLearning · 03/04/2022 19:29

@borntobequiet

I’m sure he’s weary of having to explain the blindingly obvious over and over again. The interviewer kept interrupting him with different questions which made it tricky. Actually the interviewer was OK but rather given to gesturing, on one occasion rather unfortunately.
Yes I noticed that unfortunate hand gesturing!
Motorina · 03/04/2022 20:12

@yourhairiswinterfire

I find it absolutely incredible that people don't know (and aren't told) about their chances of procreating after having any sort of physical treatment

Me too. What's happened to informed consent?

It does rather rely on the patient listening. My experience is that patients are very good at hearing what they want to hear, and skimming over the rest.

I suspect that's particularly true of something like gender reassignment. The patient goes in with lots of information gleaned from their community, all totally biased, and an enormous emotional drive to get this done as soon as possible. Neither of those are conducive to hearing, internalising, and weighing up the risks involved.

I'm not saying that absolves the surgeon from gaining consent. I'm really not. But when the patient says they understand and signs all the paperwork with all the risks you've carefully explained on it, sometimes you just have to cross your fingers and hope some of it has actually sunk in.

Clymene · 03/04/2022 20:13

The interviewer was dreadful. Lord Winston was very patient.

Thank you so much for the transcript @yourhairiswinterfire

yourhairiswinterfire · 03/04/2022 20:27

No problem, glad it was helpful 😊

GibbonsGoatsGibbons · 03/04/2022 20:40

Christ your title didn't half make me panic!
I think he's wonderful & he's very clear he just doesn't speak in handy sound bites! He reminds me so so much of one wonderful Prof I used to work with who was always very expansive in his answers Grin

I do wonder what they had told him the discussion would be.

(& I know i must be old because omg that interviewer looks about 16 to me Confused)

FannyCann · 03/04/2022 20:56

I wish someone would put Lord Winston in charge of a nationwide (human) biology curriculum, to be rolled out everywhere starting with parliament. No changes to prescribed content allowed.

Sorry for derail but I have just come off the phone to my sister. Apparently her granddaughter age 11 has been studying human reproduction at school....I waited to hear the shocking story as my sister is in a different camp to me on certain matters of biology but this was a surprising biology lesson for different reasons. Apparently the (male) teacher had decided to throw in a fun fact that women are more sexually attractive during the fertile part of their cycle, as proved by a study that showed pole dancers got bigger tips at certain times of the month. Hmm There was an accompanying video which caused much complaint from parents. Confused

FemaleAndLearning · 03/04/2022 22:37

Goodness Fanny how could any teacher think it acceptable to show pole dancing.

I wonder if the teacher also explained that 1 in 4 babies don't have the dad they think they have and that women are more likely (if that way inclined) to have sex with a different man during ovulation and the body favours the 'new' sperm for conception.
I learnt that from Prof Winston when he did some TV programme several years ago.

Bollindger · 04/04/2022 09:24

Funny that Twitter is ignoring this video.
As how do you challenge an man who has dedicated his whole life to woman.

BorgQueen · 04/04/2022 10:53

Never forget that he was instrumental in getting the GRA through, I’d love to know if he thinks if it was the right decision, with hindsight.

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