Crowdfunding and extortionate costs

[Honestopinion23]

I know that it's a travesty that women are having to bring these cases etc etc but I've just seen one GC feminist whose crowdfunding target is now £400,000, on top of a previous figure of £150k already raised. There are several other ones also asking for extremely high figures. I am just shocked that the costs could be so high (over half a million), even if the hearing is a lengthy one, and I worry that now cost of living is escalating that ordinary people won't be able to part with large amounts of cash. There's also something in me that says why should they have to. I know, I know, there is no obligation to donate but it makes me feel guilty reading the requests for funding. And I just feel a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing.
Hopefully JKR will swoop in and fund all of them!

It is a travesty that we have to defend these cases. It’s also essential. I will continue to give what I can to cases I think have merit.

Hopefully JKR will swoop in and fund all of them!

That would defund some of the other philanthropic causes for which JKR is the sole or major contributor. It would be classy if Labour returned her donations, of course. After all, WEP sold itself and women out for tiny sums of money.

Maya's costs so far have been £250K.

Who is asking for £400K and what's the explanation? What's your assessment of their costs? It would help if you were more explicit about your concerns.

I have given more to Alison Bailey, James Esses and Jo Phoenix recently, it does seem to be getting alot and have been considering changing my other charity direct debits to cover this, but very undecided about this. Did think the extra amount Alison Bailey needs seems very excessive

I'm not asking for anything like that but it is an aim of many of the groups that defend these cases to outspend the claimant.
Girlguiding were told off by the court for having 7 lawyers at a hearing where my lovely solicitor Peter Daly was there on his own.
If any of the crowdfunders don't need all the funds they will go to similar cases.

By the way partly due to GG trying to out spend me my garden is very neglected.

Did think the extra amount Alison Bailey needs seems very excessive

Okay, seen that this is Allison Bailey we're talking about.

Yep, that's a hell of a lot of money, but you're getting something for it. 20 days of Ben Cooper.

Stonewall and Garden Court Chambers are expected to call some 30 plus witnesses, all of whom will be cross-examined by Ben Cooper QC.

This could make Maya's hearing look like a minor sideshow. Were you not entertained?

Stonewall will be driving up the costs on purpose. Rather than blame AB for the cost of justice (which she is entitled to) we should blame Stonewall for their persecution of professionals who disagree with them.

Just read Allison's update and my jaw dropped slightly. It's going to be a tough ask considering CJ or other main crowdfunding sites won't host her case.

I do not blame Allison though. Reading between the lines this is Garden Court and Stonewall dragging their feet to rack up extortionate costs. This is what happens in David and Goliath situations and remember that Garden Court are a big law firm - they know all the tricks.

Her update says that between them GC and SW are calling 30 witnesses. Just think how much prep time that is for Ben, Anya and Peter.

To add, I do think if you are in the fortunate position to have any spare cash right now this is the big one to throw it at.

Ah, from my position of ignorance, Allison Bailey's case is astonishingly complex for an employment tribunal case. Maya's was the best part of 10 days and not all of those were sitting days.

Allison's case is due to last for 20 days, iirc. It involves Stonewall and Garden Court Chambers and it looks like they've chosen to call >30 witnesses. Bear in mind how long it took to handle the examination and cross-examination of Maya and was it 5 or 6 from CGD?

I can't think how large a team of researchers and solicitors AB and her team will need to support and mount successful cross-examination by Ben Cooper (is there a junior likely to be present for any of this?). Cooper's facility with the documents and brief was astonishing for Maya Forstater's case. This complexity is now about to be multiple by 5-6 in just numbers, but way beyond that in reading across that number of accounts and documents and integrating them.

I also wonder about the implications for charities with lobbying arms that offer training. Stonewall will be held scrutinised for its behaviour as part of legal proceedings. What will flow from that for HR for employers and those who took training from Stonewall without due diligence. For employers like the NHS that has implemented extraordinary policies without a proper EIA, afaict.

Sorry it actually says 30 plus witnesses. No wonder so much time has been allocated by the court.

On the positive side, when Stonewall lose, they're going to have a hell of a lot of costs to pay, and it's money that can be ploughed into more cases defending women's rights.

This case is liable to be a significant financial blow for Stonewall.

(Although could there maybe be a disclaimer somewhere in the Stonewall schemes with employers that they refuse to accept liability, so it's actually Garden Court facing the bills...?)

To add, I do think if you are in the fortunate position to have any spare cash right now this is the big one to throw it at.

I agree.

just donated. I think this is the big one in terms of challenging Stonewall and Alison needs all our help.

Yes, it's come at an awful time with the energy price hike and cost of living spiralling. I've been donating far less recently than previously but am making an exception for this. It's so very important. (Plus - Ben Cooper.)

Allison’s case will hopefully bring Stonewalls perfidy right out into the open so it’s well worth spending those pennies on it. The wider public need to see that Sonewall have lost the plot and their actions damage LGB people and hetero women.

(Of course, I realise not everyone is in a position to make that exception. Times are extremely hard for so many right now.)

I think we may hit a point of funding fatigue quite soon. Some of the crowdfunds seem to be struggling now to reach their targets especially when they are looking for funds after the case has been heard.

But hopefully some of the cases will be won and if costs are awarded some of this could be fed back into other ongoing cases.

Also there will come a point where case law can be relied upon so people will be able to be litigants in person. I don't think this is unusual for employment tribunals especially where there is already established case law. Organisations like Sex Matters hopefully will be able to advise people how to navigate the court system without bankrupting themselves.

Is it Allison Bailey who needs that amount?

Because if so, I think it's money well spent (obviously only if you can afford it.)

Stonewall's disproportionate influence is pivotal to the entire issue, and needs exposing.

Yes it was Allison’s case I was thinking of here. I guess my worry is that if this level is needed for a first instance hearing, what about future potential appeals? Cases don’t tend to have real impact until they are appealed because they won’t be binding on other judges. It’s an astronomical sum, even for 20 days of court time and I agree that Ben Cooper is a good barrister but I don’t think he warrants the fandom he has attracted really - he’s just a lawyer doing his job. I agree that it’s probably SW and GC ramping up the costs and I do think that is unfair. There’s also the GG case, Maya’s case, Raquel Rosario-Sanchez’s case, James Esses’s case and Jo Phoenix’s case. We’re talking many millions combined. I think the true winners here are the lawyers. I also can’t see how this additional 400k target can realistically be met.

We’ll have to see, won’t we?

The alternative is to let SW get away with it, and that’s not something anyone other than AB can decide. Nobody has to donate.

Hopefully the whole David and Goliath aspect to Allison Bailey's case will generate publicity. Which in turn will generate money.

@Signalbox

I think we may hit a point of funding fatigue quite soon. Some of the crowdfunds seem to be struggling now to reach their targets especially when they are looking for funds after the case has been heard.

But hopefully some of the cases will be won and if costs are awarded some of this could be fed back into other ongoing cases.

Also there will come a point where case law can be relied upon so people will be able to be litigants in person. I don't think this is unusual for employment tribunals especially where there is already established case law. Organisations like Sex Matters hopefully will be able to advise people how to navigate the court system without bankrupting themselves.

I agree. I feel genuinely sad for those that don't make the targets and have chucked a little bit their way this month but times are tough and people have limited resources.

Strategically we do need to pool resources into those cases with the biggest potential for wider impact first.

As you say, I hope it leads to a situation where people aren't forced to raise extortionate costs to seek justice.

Allison’s case is incredibly important. It really pisses me off women are having to fund this fight for our rights but we have to and really good legal representation is essential. Losing would set us back so far.

I console myself that all thats being asked of me is to donate, these cases are taking over the lives of the women brave enough to take them on

Yes, we have to remember that these women aren’t just defending themselves, they’re defending all of us.

I was once sued (I won by the way, in that the Claimant withdrew his quite bonkers case, and thus had to pay my costs as well as his own).

After 2+ years, we had not even got to the point of exchanging evidence and witness statements. There had been very little court time - just management hearings and a couple of off-the-wall applications by the Claimant, who was constantly writing letters, changing the goalposts (or trying to), and dragging his feet. Even so, my costs were approaching £200k when he pulled the plug - and I didn't have a QC or anything like that.

Going to Court is an expensive business, particularly if one side can afford to win by default, by making the costs landscape unsustainable for the other party.