Crowdfunding and extortionate costs

[Honestopinion23]

I know that it's a travesty that women are having to bring these cases etc etc but I've just seen one GC feminist whose crowdfunding target is now £400,000, on top of a previous figure of £150k already raised. There are several other ones also asking for extremely high figures. I am just shocked that the costs could be so high (over half a million), even if the hearing is a lengthy one, and I worry that now cost of living is escalating that ordinary people won't be able to part with large amounts of cash. There's also something in me that says why should they have to. I know, I know, there is no obligation to donate but it makes me feel guilty reading the requests for funding. And I just feel a bit uncomfortable about the whole thing.
Hopefully JKR will swoop in and fund all of them!

I agree with PP - this is the big one. For those who can't donate, you can still support by spreading the word, even if you do so under the radar. Not all of us have spare cash, particularly if small kids are being brought up. Certainly I didn't in those days.

I've just donated to Allison's fundraiser. I will contribute again when I can, exposing Stonewall's horrific and illegal treatment is so important, however obviously people can only contribute if they can afford it. There will always be some people in a position to contribute more, but we are all here supporting and spreading the word and sharing the truth about what's happening.

I do understand balking at the cost, it's a huge amount of money and it's horrific that women are having to pay for this, however I imagine Stonewall with its taxpayer generated funds slushing around are throwing everything at this case. This vile organisation (the head of which recently told women who have experienced male violence, rape, assault and abuse, once again, not to 'weaponise their trauma', needs to be dealt a death blow.

@tabbycatstripy

Stonewall will be driving up the costs on purpose. Rather than blame AB for the cost of justice (which she is entitled to) we should blame Stonewall for their persecution of professionals who disagree with them.

Again the process is punishment. It’s very shady behaviour by Stonewall. I hope they’ll have the book thrown at them in awarding costs if Allison wins, and she has a good case. Allison’s is a vitally important case like Maya’s and needs our support.

As for the handwringing OP: it’s for each of us to decide what we support and if we can afford to contribute. Many women have ditched monthly DD payments to captured unions and charities and are happy to divert funds to uphold women’s rights instead. Personally, while it pisses me off this is necessary because of Stonewall’s mendacious misrepresentation of our equalities law and public bodies’ credulousness, I really enjoy sticking it to the patriarchy by funding these cases. Allison’s case also has the potential to hole Stonewall below the waterline. 💪

Are we allowed to ask for a link or is that verboten?

I would have expected Stonewall, CGD, Garden Court Chambers etc to have comprehensive insurance which will be covering their legal fees and potentially damages if they lose, normally on the condition that the barristers judge the case as having a 50% or greater chance of success.

For the same reason it's a good idea to make sure that you have legal cover under your home insurance which will cover employment legal costs where there is a 50% or greater chance of success (usually - always check the policy wording)

Don't ever give more than you can afford.

I'd love to be able to support all of these people, but as it is I give what I can. Allison's case seems crucial to me.

I contribute where I can and will contribute again to Allison's case. However I find it really sick that Stonewall is given taxpayer's money (I think?) while it is in breach of the Equality Act and has caused so much harm, while individuals like us have to crowdfund these cases.

I think the BBC deserves to have legal action taken against it too, for the part it has played, and the damage it's caused to (at least) half of licence fee-payers, and the population it is meant to provide for. But imagine the costs of that.

I have dug and will keep digging.

Alison Bailey's case is so important because it gets right to the heart of Stonewall's MO. "Such a nice law firm you have there ..."

I'm also following the James Esses case closely, because it includes influence exerted by a professional body - the UKCP - that effectively barred him from receiving a professional qualification.

Thanks for the reminder - have donated to Allison.

I do see your point OP - the costs are crazy. I hope she raises what she needs and I hope she wins.

Incidentally, the Guardian had a whole long article about "Slapps" - strategic lawsuits against public participation - and how journalists are being silenced
www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/29/online-abuse-lawsuits-gendered-personal-attacks?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other

Not a peep about all these crowdfunders though - I guess it's the wrong kind of public participation?

The first time I was sued I was, after witness statements were exchanged, quoted £50-60K by my then Barrister for a five day High Court trial. At that point, I agreed to STOP (people tend to threaten me with "harassment" reports and further claims if I state what occurred). For one thing, the real financial risk would have been borne by me, and for another, my case was making no wider political point. Given the complexities of Allison's case and the court time required, it doesn't seem a hugely disproportionate sum. It's just deeply regrettable that women are constantly put in a position that severely impacts their mental, emotional, and sometimes physical, health simply to try and uphold fairness and the truth.

@1MillionSelfiesTakenByMyKids

Are we allowed to ask for a link or is that verboten?

Yes. Go to Allison's twitter page or google her name to find her website.

It's weird how they think the money goes to the named individual.

We are digging for the cause. 50 years of advancing womens rights being ripped away from us.

And when the courts realise that this case is only before them because lots and lots of women, and some men, put their hand in their pocket to stick a tenner or 20 quid into the pot... it's powerful.

It's not grifting, Aidan, it's community.

@Honestopinion23

Yes it was Allison’s case I was thinking of here. I guess my worry is that if this level is needed for a first instance hearing, what about future potential appeals? Cases don’t tend to have real impact until they are appealed because they won’t be binding on other judges. It’s an astronomical sum, even for 20 days of court time and I agree that Ben Cooper is a good barrister but I don’t think he warrants the fandom he has attracted really - he’s just a lawyer doing his job. I agree that it’s probably SW and GC ramping up the costs and I do think that is unfair. There’s also the GG case, Maya’s case, Raquel Rosario-Sanchez’s case, James Esses’s case and Jo Phoenix’s case. We’re talking many millions combined. I think the true winners here are the lawyers. I also can’t see how this additional 400k target can realistically be met.

And Katie Alcock's case. The Girl Guides one is so important.

Bristol university seem to have done the same to Raquel Rosario Sanchez- using their power to deliberately drive up her costs in the hope that we, the public, won't be able to keep her funded.

It is appalling and manipulative. But this is the price of resistance currently. Either we resist, or we balk at its price and submit.

Actually Allison's surplus funds will go to the Samaritans not other GC causes. I get why she has said Samaritans - would have been an uncontroversial choice years ago - but the woman who helped introduce a lot of the gender stuff at Girl Guides, Julie Bentley, is now their CEO.

I really wish she had said to other GC causes.

I am seriously looking at my pension pot. I only donate what I won't miss - but I hate being bullied.
Stonewall et al are not just bullying Allison , they are bullying all of us with this.

It's a shame we need to do this but I will do my best to support the women fighting these fights on my behalf.

Well, Stonewall are doing their level best to ensure she won't have surplus funds. So that's nice of them.

I find it very tiresome how the same people shuffle around the upper levels of charities, from one cause to another, with no deep commitment or understanding for any issue in particular.

Thanks for the reminder, it’s a beautiful day for a spot of gardening.

One good thing is that as more and more people have their eyes opened to all this, hopefully that will mean a wider pool of people donating, so it won't all be down to the same people every time. So keep spreading the word!

I am - was - quite shocked at the £400K. But...but. This was the case that really peaked me. I couldn't believe what I was seeing when I read the original crowdfunder and by the time I got back to donate in the afternoon that day, all the text had been pulled. I still had it as I'd sent it to a friend.

It was the fact that somehow, someone, seemed to have been able to lean on a funding site to get that text removed. So what is it they don't want coming out? Must be serious, I thought.

Then, IIRC, I read about the access for information request AB submitted to her own chambers and to Stonewall. The chambers returned the information. Stonewall either said they didn't have it (but they must have b/c the chambers did and it was all emails), or they returned only a paltry amount. Quite which of these, I'm now not sure.

Anyway, there's all that and now this. This whacking great sum. That seems to point to - as another poster said - an attempt to drown her in costs so she can't proceed. Again, what is in this case that someone doesn't want coming out?

The timing for SW is bad. There's the conference still limping on for example. I'd like to know what's so bad it can't come out, and I'd like the conference to be run by honest brokers. So finding out is important because SW have been pumped full of taxpayers' cash so we need to know if there's something in all this. The signs point to there being something worth going to great lengths to bury.

I will donate on that basis but I agree it would be great if some anonymous donor could help out. If I won the lottery, I would!

It's a massive stretch target but it's got a lot going on within the case. It's a case of high public interest as well. So I hope she makes the target and then we can find out what's happened here.

@Signalbox

I think we may hit a point of funding fatigue quite soon. Some of the crowdfunds seem to be struggling now to reach their targets especially when they are looking for funds after the case has been heard.

But hopefully some of the cases will be won and if costs are awarded some of this could be fed back into other ongoing cases.

Also there will come a point where case law can be relied upon so people will be able to be litigants in person. I don't think this is unusual for employment tribunals especially where there is already established case law. Organisations like Sex Matters hopefully will be able to advise people how to navigate the court system without bankrupting themselves.

@Signalbox Hi, you are referring to my case when you say: "Some of the crowdfunds seem to be struggling now to reach their targets especially when they are looking for funds after the case has been heard."

A few months before trial, I specifically requested a final estimate because I wanted to avoid having to ask the public over and over again. I stretched my target and met those costs before the trial. Then, after raising all that (what was explained to me as "the total" of my case), I was given another estimate for an extra £75,000 that I needed to pay as soon as possible. It felt like I got kicked in the gut.

All of it is a result of the University's behaviour in my legal case. Anything that could have been simple, they would deliberately make it as difficult as possible. One week, we had to file four separate applications because they were just not cooperating, at all. Their behaviour was so appalling that they kept producing evidence literally in the middle of the trial (they should have done that 18 months before and that's a very big no-no). The costs in my case are exorbitant, because the University of Bristol wanted to make this as horrible as possible for me.

Defendants in sex and gender cases are doing this both to intimidate the claimant and to scare anyone who might dare to do the same. Bristol University is a billion pound institution, whereas I am a foreign student. Stonewall is a massive corporation while Allison is an individual barrister. Defendants are essentially saying: "You want to take on this juggernaut? Then I'm going to make you personally responsible for all these costs." It is a punishment.

Today my heart goes out to Allison. I remember how absolutely mortified I felt when I was told I had to raise even more money, after I had already met my final target. All the claimants on this issue are being put in impossible situations.

I will donate on that basis but I agree it would be great if some anonymous donor could help out. If I won the lottery, I would!

Someone just gave £50,000.

RaquelRosarioSanchez

I fervently wish you get the same generosity from whoever that amazing donor is.

In the meantime, I'm digging for you too!

Thanks OP, I’ve just donated. (Sadly the 50k someone’s just dropped wasn’t me ).