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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

GPs will be paid for trans hormone prescriptions - Sussex

108 replies

Igneococcus · 02/04/2022 08:05

I don't quite get it, supposedly it is “not designed to promote the initiation of hormonal treatment in general practice" but also "The document adds that any decision to start hormone therapy is “at the discretion of the individual GP”.
Also it seems non-binary people also need hormones.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/eb0eb198-b1f3-11ec-8570-b43daaf58ea1?shareToken=bda8d448f411c2d44f782d823721d844

OP posts:
Outofexcuses · 02/04/2022 09:30

@Faffertea
So from what you say, you are likely to see this 16 year old again and you will be expected to prescribe - what? Puberty blockers? Cross sex hormones? With only 2.5 hours specialist training?
This is unbelievably shocking - surely the GMC must see that?

Lovelyricepudding · 02/04/2022 09:31

This man went through a lot of body modification procedures. How successful would you say his transition to become a cat was? Sadly it didn't seem to help his mental health either.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stalking_Cat

AlisonDonut · 02/04/2022 09:32

validate 1 to validate them

I forsee a new banner 'Validate 1 - Validate all'.

In baby blue and pretty pink of course. Because we are all toddlers.

Repeat after me...'Validate 1 - Validate all'.

[But not you trouble making witches.]

OldCrone · 02/04/2022 09:33

This person from Stonewall thinks that 2 1/2 hours is enough ‘training’ to make these GPs specialists?

Isn't that the type of course that Helen Webberley did to make her a specialist?

They plan to pay doctors for prescribing cross sex hormones while patients are still on the gender clinic waiting list, but say that this is not promoting the initiation of hormonal treatment. If they are still on the waiting list they have not started treatment, so they will be initiating the treatment, and surely a payment for doing so is promoting the treatment.

And interim care for those on the waiting list should be psychological support not irreversible physical treatment.

Faffertea · 02/04/2022 10:08

@Outofexcuses
I don’t actually know because no one has actually said what’s expected and the first I had heard about this new interim service was when I received the letter from GIDS. But that’s nothing new. I’ve got used to finding out what I’m supposed to be doing my reading it in the press. It’s par for the course for this government and their puppets in NHSE.
As for the GMC I can only assume they are captured given their previous guidance on this which is direct contradiction of their guidance in Good Medical Practice and against the usual practice for other drugs that need specialist initiation. I don’t start patients on other drugs that are beyond my competency to initiate just because the waiting lists are very long and despite the fact that the patient is suffering due to the waiting time.
I will continue to practice safely and hold the position that a failure to properly commission and fund a service does not make it a GP role to fill the gap. Patients deserve better.

@OldCrone

I agree and can only hope that the faith I have in my colleagues and what I’ve seen to date is correct and this will not be accepted.
As an aside I tried to refer this young person to CAMHS for psychological support and to explore things as they are very clearly questioning their whole identity and struggling with a lot of issues. CAMHD are swamped so the referral was rejected and I was directed to GIDS.

tootiredtobother · 02/04/2022 10:13

OFFS
I asked GP for HRT, told no then went private for first prescription, and got it, now waiting to see if GP will pick up the prescription request.

Why do women have to beg and fight for HRT, and these people get hormones with hardly a whimper from GP's

Lovelyricepudding · 02/04/2022 10:18

As an aside I tried to refer this young person to CAMHS for psychological support and to explore things as they are very clearly questioning their whole identity and struggling with a lot of issues. CAMHD are swamped so the referral was rejected and I was directed to GIDS.

And from what we/tribunals have been told GIDS work on the assumption they have been seen and assessed by camhs before they see them so no point GIDS going over 'old ground' when they see them...

Outofexcuses · 02/04/2022 10:24

@Faffertea
I'm sure you will continue to practice safely, but you say 'I’m aware of several colleagues who have had patients who’ve seen GenderGP have letters about prescribing hormones reminding them they can fall foul of GMC guidance on this in an attempt to coerce prescribing.' That's a pretty scary threat for a GP, isn't it?

AlisonDonut · 02/04/2022 10:25

I just don't get it either.

Won't give middle aged women HRT even though it helps heart health and guards against osteoporosis.

Will give teens and young people hormones of the opposite sex, which causes osteoporosis and all sorts of unknown lifelong issues.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 02/04/2022 10:39

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OldCrone · 02/04/2022 10:44

[quote Outofexcuses]**@Faffertea
I'm sure you will continue to practice safely, but you say 'I’m aware of several colleagues who have had patients who’ve seen GenderGP have letters about prescribing hormones reminding them they can fall foul of GMC guidance on this in an attempt to coerce prescribing.' That's a pretty scary threat for a GP, isn't it?[/quote]
The doctors who run GenderGP, Helen and Michael Webberley, are both under investigation by the GMC.

Michael Webberley's tribunal is ongoing, Helen Webberley's starts again on Monday.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4502351-Dr-Michael-Webberley

Anyone who is suggesting that GenderGP are authorities on GMC guidance should be reminded of their activities.

TackyTriceratops · 02/04/2022 10:50

Will gps be aid to give out hrt to menopausal women? They're paid to give out anti depressants but this doesn't protect bones and heart.

TackyTriceratops · 02/04/2022 10:53

Many menopausal women also need testosterone but that's near impossible to get as is obviously off licence.

Unless we all Rock up as non binary and demand patches and testosterone for all the personalities in our body Hmm

viques · 02/04/2022 10:57

@Faffertea

A few things to unpick here…

This is part of a move to try and set up services that are acting like satellite services for patients on GIDS waiting list.
Currently there is a referral form to complete for GIDS which asks questions about how and why someone wants to transition/identifies as transgender, what their mental health is like etc. It’s a pain in the arse to complete but is not (in my opinion) designed to be a thorough exploration of the patient’s situation and to be fair that’s not the point of a referral, that’s what GIDS should be doing.
Having recently (and unhappily because I have concerns about GIDS but can’t refuse because that’s the NHS pathway and a fear of being labelled transphobic if I speak up) referred a 16 year old teenager. I have had a reply telling me that there is a plan to set up this service starting in Spring 2022 because of how long the wait is and I may be asked to issue prescriptions. Ironically though they make it very clear that the patient will not be under GIDS clinical responsibility until physically seen.
To add some context to this a few years ago the GMC issued guidance to GPs about providing ‘bridging’ prescriptions for hormones to patients on GIDS waiting list which contradicts its own guidance about prescribing only within our own competence and many GPs were and are very unhappy about it. I’m aware of several colleagues who have had patients who’ve seen GenderGP have letters about prescribing hormones reminding them they can fall foul of GMC guidance on this in an attempt to coerce prescribing.

The funding thing is actually pretty standard. Funding for practices is really quite complicated. GP practices are paid a basic amount of money (around £99) per patient per year to provide all Primary Care services such as medication, appointments with doctors, nurses etc and to pay all the staff costs, utilities etc. Clearly that is not enough money so there is additional funding for non core services. For example, childhood vaccinations are non core, so if you do them you get paid etc. Lots of routine work is funded in this way. In addition to this there are other schemes that practices in some parts of the country are offered because there is a local need for it and practices sign up to offer this work for additional funding but have to demonstrate they have done the work in the contract.
The vast majority of GPs will not do something they think is not good for their patient just because they’ll get paid for it. The biggest worry here for me is that there will be those who will do it because they think they’re doing the right thing or because GIDS tells them it’s the right thing without being aware of the full issue.

Thank you, that is very interesting, especially about the patient not being seen as the responsibility of GIDS until after initial consultation, on the surface this seems reasonable , if I thought I had cancer, I would want a proper diagnosis using diagnostic tools my GP does not possess, and prior to diagnosis I would not be my oncologists responsibility . However , neither would I expect or want my GP to prescribe interim chemotherapy for me based on an online course lasting a couple of hours without reference to the support services and monitoring care that a specialist oncology department offers.

It does seem as though the responsibility for any adverse outcome is being firmly glued onto GPs shoulders. What happens when a patient takes gp prescribed hormones and bumps them up a bit with stuff bought online , who monitors the patients wellbeing, both physical and psychological over what could be several years before GIDS appointments are available, who makes sure that this doesn’t turn into a free for all market place where hormone medication becomes another commodity on the black market . Who is ultimately responsible when a patient decides not to continue with their treatment and finds they are permanently damaged?

At a time when GPs are under huge stress and pressure I hope you all have the energy to band together and fight this. It is not about patient care, it is about an ill advised knee jerk reaction to social craziness.

AlisonDonut · 02/04/2022 10:58

It is like they saw the GenderGP model and thought they'd mirror it.

Without carrying on to the end of the paragraph that shows how they are suspended/being investigated/had to sell off the company and run it through Spain to get around the actual LAW in the UK.

Terfydactyl · 02/04/2022 11:02

@MintyMoocow

Surely we want them to transition properly, isn’t hormones the start? You can’t scream “Men in dresses” and then complain when they are started down the track of full transition.
Cant men simply wear a dress if they want? Do they have to transition, I mean pips bunce manages fine wearing a dress or a suit and has no intention of (as yet) transitioning.

No one cares what pips wears, women only care that pips uses the mens spaces and wins mens awards.

CarbonelCat · 02/04/2022 11:10

So, I can't get a Mirena coil for my debilitating menstrual periods because there's no one at my surgery who can fit them, and the local sexual health clinic is still in covid measures and won't see you except in an emergency (gynae problems are not a sexual health emergency. But I could get some random hormones sorted if I feel I'm the wrong sex? I really do feel like I don't want to be an anaemic woman....

InvisibleDragon · 02/04/2022 11:19

Thanks for your really thoughtful and informative posts Faffertea!

This whole area of medicine is such a mess. It used to be so specialised that referral to a tiny national service was appropriate. But that's not workable now there are so many people seeking to transition.

I'm tentatively optimistic about the idea of regional hubs, but I'm concerned about how these would work in practice - would there be a functioning MDT or would it be a rubber stamp?

JessPlaysGames · 02/04/2022 11:23

This would mean I won't have to wait 24 years for my hormones, or pay to go private. This is good

VelvetChairGirl · 02/04/2022 11:25

CAMHS is terrible my son has been waiting for a ASD and ADHD assessment since he was 6, he'll be 12 soon and he still hasnt had an assessment, I've had a vague promise that it'll definitely happen before November (believe it when I see it) .

he did get about 5 fixed term exclusions from primary school tho due to safe guarding (mainly him threatening to throw himself down the stairs and them saying they didnt have the staff to deal with him so take him home)

and he's just had his first one for secondary school for punching another boy, then seeking him out about 20 mins later to do it again.

but hey cant have the trans kids feeling distressed can we they have to be dealt with asap, I guess because theres profit in that pumping them full of drugs. that doesnt work for ASD no profit there so fuck em.

BootsAndRoots · 02/04/2022 11:29

@MintyMoocow

Surely we want them to transition properly, isn’t hormones the start? You can’t scream “Men in dresses” and then complain when they are started down the track of full transition.
Self ID is a serious problem (in my eyes this campaign by Stonewall et al has led to more discrimination towards transsexual people then there was before, self inflicted really).

But we seriously need to get away from this idea of transitioning being the panacea. Too many people are transitioning and they don't have gender dysmorphia. Any gender non-conformity is now treated with transitioning, instead of just letting people be. AGP is continually silenced and incorrectly claimed to be dysmorphia. Clusters of teenage girls are transitioned etc.

KohlaParasaurus · 02/04/2022 11:32

@tootiredtobother

OFFS I asked GP for HRT, told no then went private for first prescription, and got it, now waiting to see if GP will pick up the prescription request. Why do women have to beg and fight for HRT, and these people get hormones with hardly a whimper from GP's
At the moment GPs are not initiating cross sex hormones at all, let alone "without a whimper", and I suspect most won't do so despite this misguided initiative.

I strongly agree that we should be providing better menopause care than we currently do.

MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 02/04/2022 12:32

At the moment GPs are not initiating cross sex hormones at all, let alone "without a whimper", and I suspect most won't do so despite this misguided initiative

The trouble is, NHS England, the GMC and BMA are all Stonewalled.

So what happens if GPs declines to get involved in the scheme? The patient complains about transphobia, and the GP get disciplined by NHSE and potentially struck off by the GMC. Most GPs are not going to risk their livelihoods by taking a stand, and I don't mean that as a criticism. Why should they face the sack, or at least months of public shaming and stress, because of NHS England's cowardice? NHSE is passing the buck.

LunaLights · 02/04/2022 12:34

Does this involve Harrop?

SamphiretheStickerist · 02/04/2022 12:51

Not at the moment, he is still Dr non Grata isn't he?