Transcript.
Julia Hartley-Brewer and Siobhan McDonagh
JHB: your party leader and an awful lot of your fellow MPs seem to struggle with knowing what the difference is between a man and a woman. I’m pretty sure you do know the difference.
Whether or not men have cervixes or whether or as we discovered yesterday some questioning on the radio station of Keir Starmer, whether or not he thinks women can have a penis and still be women. Do you struggle between telling the difference between a man and a woman?
SMcD: I think a woman is a female born adult. I do think there are people who are born in one gender and feel they are in the other and my heart goes out to them and they’re on a journey perhaps to make a change but I just think this debate is so hot and full of hatred that we can’t have a sensible discussion about it
JHB: where s the hatred coming from?
SMcD: it comes from people who strongly feel that there is no such thing as sex and only gender and on the other side from people who want to provoke an argument in order to get away from the issues that are really troubling people
JHB: - you think all the women like JKR, like Sharon Davis, people like myself that are just saying ‘can we establish that everyone understands the difference between man and women and why those differences are recognised in law and safe spaces etc. etc’. that’s not provoking and argument, that’s not coming from hatred that’s coming from a concern that well - women being something other than a figment of men’s imagination on a Wednesday afternoon. but also women’s safety, does it not.
I don’t think it’s a laughing matter; I think the idea that a woman is anyone who says they’re a woman when they feel like a woman – I find that quite … scary, do you not?
SMcD I do think, Julia, you must know, you’ve been involved in this game long enough that there are lots of people who are provoking an argument because they want to create a divide.
JHB I only see that on the other side
SMcD: {?} really really difficult issues and can I see I think JKR is a national hero she stays in this country she pays her taxes to this country and she gives her money to good causes and it’s really distressing to think she is treated as anything less than a national hero
JHB and she’s never ever said anything remotely transphobic at all. So you can answer the question which your party leader KS couldn’t answer yes - can a woman have a penis?
SmcD eh … I think …
JHB it’s a really easy question Siobhan
SMcD no, no, it’s because I don’t want to answer in a way that provokes just a furore. I think -
JHB Siobhan. It’s a really easy question. Can a woman have a penis?
SMcD No, I don’t think so. But I do think a man with a penis can want to become a woman.
JHB doesn’t make him a woman though
SMcD not at that point
JHB at what point does it then?
SMcD That’s the question I’m grappling with
JHB You can be supportive of trans people and say if someone wants to live their life as a woman they can be a transwoman doesn’t necessarily mean they take on all of the rights that a woman has because of reasons of biological sex which make a difference for example women’s sport or women’s refuges or safe spaces or changing rooms
that’s not hatred that’s not stirring things up that’s just a recognition of biological reality. something with KS your party leader who wants to be PM struggles with does that not as a woman worry you?
SMcD: yeah, yeah but Julia
JHB it does worry you?
SMcD: I don’t know about you but I’ve seen people who were originally were men who transitioned to being women at some point
JHB: are they transitioned to being women or are they living as transwomen?
SMcD: Ah. I’m not sure I understand the difference.
JHB: because if you still have a penis and you’re born a man, you’re a man, aren’t you?
SMcD: Yeah, but you might be … oh, see .. We’re going down a rabbit hole now
JHB: No, we’re not we’re trying to establish what people who want to be elected to run this country actually y think about some fundamental things which none of my listeners would struggle to grapple with at all
SMcD: I hope I’ve answered you Julia I do believe
JHB: You said that a woman doesn’t have a penis apart from a man who says he wants to be a woman at some point does become a woman
SMcD: no no I think there are some people who do want to transition – I think it’s a tiny number
JHB: yes of course there are
SMcD: - a tiny number. and as you sad basically I just want people to live their lives as they feel comfortable with. I do believe there is a place for safe spaces for women. And I think three women a week are murdered at the hands of men and you just can’t get round that.