Former Trans Child of Gender Critical Parents (very long). *Trigger warning - descriptions of self harm and suicide* - Title edited by MNHQ

[pop91]

Hi,

To start I wanna say I'm writing this post in good faith to provide the viewpoint of a Trans person with Gender Critical parents but I know this is the internet and this will probably just be trolled to death but here goes.

I had a pretty regular 'happy' family setup, and apparently first told my parents of my identity at just 5yrs old but the first I remember is at 8yrs old when I refused to go by my 'very gendered' birth name but my parents insisted on using it especially publicly.

My parents were never particularly strict on gender roles in the home - my sister would wear my dad's glasses and jacket and stomp around with his briefcase in hand and my brother had an emo phase with heels and mascara to match and apart from some grumbling from my father it was never the biggest issue in our house.

Sexuality was different though even though my father would class himself as a pragmatic centrist, barring a socialist university phase, and my mother a card-carrying progressive New Labour type whose Best Friend was the most flamboyant gay man and an Aunt who lived with her 'friend' until she passed. There was an uncomfortableness with sexuality where both my parents would call it a lifestyle choice and opposed gay marriage - cut to three years ago when my older brother came out as bisexual and last month the youngest sister as a lesbian but rest assured the other 3 siblings remain firmly 'normal.'

Back to me and by 12 I had started puberty and was experiencing debilitating gender dysphoria - I would look into the mirror and see nothing that matched my brain. I would continue to feel this way until the bullying and dysphoria got so bad that one night I climbed into my bathtub with a kitchen knife hoping I could change my body to fit my brain somehow I managed not to perform self-surgery in my bathtub.

A couple of months later I came clean to my parents, I wasn't expecting a big hug but I wasn't expecting what came next. They ignored it as if I had told them what I wanted for dinner, they decided they didn't hear what I had said at all.

Over the next year, the internet became my friend as I found ways to affirm my gender by doing hidden things at first and then slowly more outward things. I came out to my siblings and although they found it confusing my oldest brother and sister were a godsend who I wouldn't have survived without, They helped me pick out a new haircut and new clothes and we came up with a new name.

I came out in school and sure there was bullying but I was feeling so Euphoric that it almost didn't matter. When the teachers found out they informed my parents and that's when everything changed! My parents sat me down and said I was just confused. They threw out my new clothes, anything that I used to affirm my gender, even my shoes and magazines then they took my bedroom door off and took away my laptop and phone and forced my older siblings to refer to me by my birth name, my older brother and sister stopped supporting me and I lost my only family support and anything that was helping me.

Eventually, when they realised everything they had done hadn't worked and I still felt the same way, they decided to try both religious and non-religious conversion therapy which left permanent scarring to my mental health and I frequently have nightmares about it.

At 15 I had my first suicide attempt and my parents forced me to lie and say it was due just to bullying at school but that wasn't true it was the dysphoria and conversion therapy that was killing me.

From 15 to 17 I had multiple suicide attempts and after the third one, my parents finally allowed me to stop the conversion therapy but still forcibly live as my 'biological' sex.

Eventually, I managed to get to a great University and at 18 I socially transitioned and by 20 I had started hormones. I now have a job that provides me financial stability and have an amazing partner, with 2 children from a prior relationship that I now consider like my own. We are also now having a baby very soon.

My mother now describes herself as Gender Critical and frequently posts online about how she will be unable to see her grandchildren because of her views, which is true as I will not allow my parents to see either my child or stepchildren.

My parents continue to refuse to acknowledge my identity and pronouns. The last time we talked, she said she believes I am just gay, which neither makes sense considering my partner's gender nor the fact she also has a terrible relationship with my lesbian sister and bisexual brother who also rarely allows his child to visit my mum, due to her comments about their sexualities.

I finally have the support back of all my siblings and we do frequently gather without my parents. I hope one day my parents change their minds but honestly I don't hold much hope and I don't know if I could forgive what they did to me.

A lot of online trans activists wish trans children for Gender Criticals but I don't, it wasn't very nice at all. If you're going to ask if I think kids should transition, the answer is I don't know as I didn't transition as a child and a social transition helped plenty for me.

Well that's it I think, just the perspective and experience of a trans person with Gender Critical parents, feel free to ask any reasonable questions or respectful questions.

pop91 I wrote something similar to you on another thread. (I just came across this thread.)

When you say things like, 'I would look into the mirror and see nothing that matched my brain', I am tempted to point out, first, that when I look in a mirror, I see nothing that matches my brain either. No-one does. But of course you are speaking metaphorically. You mean something like, 'I see nothing like what I want to see.'

Fine. But I suspect the metaphor you employ misleads you and possibly others. By talking of 'matching' you seem to imply that there is a something that somehow does not match with what you see.

Now, of course no-one thinks that there is a little picture or model located somewhere inside your skull that looks a bit like your body but is differently sexed. That would be silly. But push this a little further: is there anything, anywhere that somehow mismatches with what you saw? What, if so?

This is where the idea of a gender identity arises, it seems. But have we any reason to believe in the existence of any such thing? I say not.

How, if at all, would your story be different without this (spurious, I am suggesting) something that does not match your biological presentation, your physical body? You look in the mirror and dislike what you see, particularly the sexual characteristics. You do not enjoy certain stereotypes associated with your sex. Your parents are unhelpful. And so on.

Can you see a way your history could be told in this way, without metaphorical (or literal , as it often turns out for many ideologues) talk of 'matching' ? -- Much as we might tell of a young person going through body dysmorphia who looks in a mirror and hates what she sees, but whose (to her) physically repulsive attributes are not related to sexual development.

How does your story differ from that of a person who suffered body dysmorphia in childhood? Only, it seems, in the addition of this notion that there is something (in your brain, in your soul, in your 'identity' ) that is the real you that you could have been (and might still be, given appropriate surgery/hormones).

I see no reason to believe in this added notion, be it supposed physical or not. (Nor, as far as I can see, could it perform its intended function even if it did exist. But, enough.)

None of this detracts from what must be the very real suffering incumbent on dysmorphia such as you describe. If what I say is right, however, it does follow that you have not changed sex.

@KimikosNightmare

isn't sex determined later in pregnancy, not at conception?

How is it possible not to know and understand sex is determined as soon sperm meets egg?

For pop91 and any other new Twitter guests.

So just to get the basics clear. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes. Female humans have xx, male humans have xy.
Sperm and eggs have a single chromosome. Eggs can only have x, as female humans, the egg carriers, only have x's. Sperm can have x or y as male humans, the sperm donators, have x's and y's.

At conception one lucky sperm fertilises the eggs. If the sperm carries a y chromosomes the end result is xy and thereby male. If the sperm carries a x the end result is xx and a female child is born.

This is where the advice comes from on how to conceive a child of a certain sex. Y sperm swim faster but die quicker, so if you have sex when you have ovulated, chances are higher for a male child. X sperm swim slower, but survive longer.

This is also how genetic sex selection takes place. If parents have a high risk of a certain illness that only impact for example male children, IVF is used and the embryos implanted are selected based on being xx.

@donquixotedelamancha

Race may well be cultural, but it is based on reality - one’s genetic make up if you like. I’m assuming that these fictitious babies are of either sex? If not, you’d go back in 100 years and find 2 skeletons - which you’d be able to identify as male or female almost instantly. You’d also be able to identify their race, or at least their racial composition, via dna.

It's really not. Scientifically humans do not have races (as in subspecies) wolves do and cabbages do but humans don't; not even close.

We don't and can't identify ancient groups of people by race, we do it by language group. There are villages 20 miles apart in Spain with greater genetic diverity than someone from medieval England and North India. Humans have huge genetic diversity and the factors which get called race are a tiny part of it.

Racism exists and as a result groups are referred to as races but it's based on skin colour, culture and prejudice. We shouldn't buy what races are selling.

No can we please stop equating gender stereotypes with racism? It's never going to go well.

While I agree with your last sentence and was the only reason I even got involved in this discussion. Race does exist, your colour is defined by genetics and is the lived reality of everyone not seen as the norm so let’s not pretend it doesn’t exist. I don’t know how you’ve got to the conclusion that we identify people by language group historically. How have historians been able to distinguish that the bones found at cheddar gorge had dark skin and blue eyes if not by specific genetic markers they identify both eye colour and skin colour. No one has suggested subspecies within humans.

@sanluca
Very helpful, thanks.

Trans people have informed you that calling a Trans Man a woman is deeply offensive and does denigrate and insult Trans Men!

The men in my social and wider circle find referring to a transman as a man deeply offensive, denigrating and insulting to them.

Trans people have informed you that calling a Trans Woman a man is deeply offensive and does denigrate and insult Trans Women!

The women in my social and wider circle are informing you that calling a transwoman a woman is deeply offensive, denigrating and insulting to them.

You are arguing for compelled speech and belief on the basis of being kind and not distressing a trans person no thought of kindness or not distressing the other person in the scenario. Forced belief and speech is just that forced it doesn't make the person being forced into it actually believe it. How does it help you knowing that people are lying because they have to and are not freely giving their affirmation to you?

Race does exist, your colour is defined by genetics and is the lived reality of everyone not seen as the norm so let’s not pretend it doesn’t exist.

I am not pretending the idea of race does not exist but race theory has been debunked a century ago. Racism is it's toxic legacy, not and objective thing.

I don’t know how you’ve got to the conclusion that we identify people by language group historically.

A quick 20 minutes looking at how anthropology works will confirm this to be correct.

How have historians been able to distinguish that the bones found at cheddar gorge had dark skin and blue eyes if not by specific genetic markers they identify both eye colour and skin colour.

The point is that eye and skin colour are controlled by a tiny number of genes out of millions. They don't mean anything else about a person apart from their eye and skin colour. Relatively few genetic characteristics exist in geographic groupings. Even these genetic tests that tell you you are 25% french are largely bobbins.

No one has suggested subspecies within humans.

That's what race theory is and where the terminology comes from. The stereotype differences between 'races' are cultural, not genetic.

Can we take the race theory discussion elsewhere please?

Well to me Man, Women and Non-Binary are all identities whereas male, female and intersex are biological and normally they work together:
Female = Women

Thank you for explaining your terms of reference. With respect though, this is a confusion about the words man and woman on your part.

Perhaps you will be able to understand this from the following:
Man = adult male human
Woman = adult female human
Stallion = adult male horse
Mare = adult female horse
Ram = adult male sheep
Ewe = adult female sheep
Bull = adult male cow
Heifer/Cow = adult female cow

Etc

A bull will never have the inner feeling of a cow. If a human male thinks he feels female that can only be some sort of act of human imagination or disturbance at work in him.

As for dysphoria in the teenage years probably many more people suffer that than is realised. So many find their changing body hell.

If a young human male is more ‘feminine’ in appearance and demeanour compared to the idea of a typical butch man, there is no reason to think he is actually really female - he is a useful contribution to society’s variety of humans of both sexes. There is a place for him as a man just as he is.

‘Gender’ as meaning a societal expression of sex is a very new use of the word. ‘Woman’ is an ancient word.

Personally I think the word gender has caused a morass of confusion as so many people now also use it as a euphemism for sex; as well as another group using it to mean societal expression of sex.

@VestofAbsurdity

Trans people have informed you that calling a Trans Man a woman is deeply offensive and does denigrate and insult Trans Men!

The men in my social and wider circle find referring to a transman as a man deeply offensive, denigrating and insulting to them.

Trans people have informed you that calling a Trans Woman a man is deeply offensive and does denigrate and insult Trans Women!

The women in my social and wider circle are informing you that calling a transwoman a woman is deeply offensive, denigrating and insulting to them.

You are arguing for compelled speech and belief on the basis of being kind and not distressing a trans person no thought of kindness or not distressing the other person in the scenario. Forced belief and speech is just that forced it doesn't make the person being forced into it actually believe it. How does it help you knowing that people are lying because they have to and are not freely giving their affirmation to you?

Yes. Calling a transman a man and calling a transwoman a woman are things I personally find deeply offensive and insulting. So do my friends and family.

I also find it offensive and insulting when people (like this OP) imply their feelings of offence are more important than mine or those of my children.

We are offended, each by the other. What to do?

I have a proposed solution, OP. You ignore the offence I cause you by calling transwomen men, and I will ignore the offence you cause me by calling transwomen women.

(We might call this 'tolerating others' views in a pluralist society'. We already do this for lots of views already.)

Further, and given that here we are disagreeing about matters of fact, perhaps we could agree also to discuss which of us is right.

(We could call this a 'debate'. Again this happens for many other issues already. Of course to have a fruitful debate, the protagonists need to accept, at least in principle, the possibility they might be mistaken. Any chance?)

[Oh, and this is nothing like 'N' or 'Pi' ... that would be more like 'Ty' ... which I will agree to eschew, and teach my children likewise. Perhaps, in the spirit of things, OP, you might like to eschew 'c*s' too.]

FOR WHOEVER HAS READ THIS FAR

Last Night I decided to post my experience with my self-proclaimed Gender Critical Parents. I was inspired by my Mothers online posts relating to myself and my family to post here hoping to discuss parenting for trans or gender dysphoric children with people who disagree on the notions of 'transness.'

Although the responses started out positive and reasonable, specifically the GC mother explaining her understanding of her daughter's + friend groups gender dysphoria (which I would have loved to hear more about).

The replies quickly turned to questions and statements that I simply either cannot answer (not being an expert) or for my peace of mind have chosen not to.

I avoided gendered language in my post as to not be subject to the 'truth telling' as I honestly don't require it, but for some reason, it felt important for people to work out that I am a trans man?

Questions of why I was up late on Mother's Day as if it wasn't evident I was thinking of my own Mother and reacting as such :(

I'm sorry but I can't define a woman or man beyond the definitions I've thus far provided, maybe someone from the trans or grammatical community who's far smarter than me will be able to provide the definitions in the required parameters.

I cannot explain Gender Dysphoria beyond the emotional and rudimentary personal understanding I have. I'm sure experts could explain it in a way that would feel more satisfactory but I admit I cannot.

And so on...with such questions and statements, I was pulled into trying to explain last night when the responses went off-topic (parenting and parental relationships).

I particularly cannot understand the Racial context that came into play, especially with assertions about my Mixed ethnicity or of my father's religion and ethnicity that I found deeply offensive.

I admit in my Late Night haze I posted a more theological hypothetical which in hindsight was posted in the wrong space. And I reacted out of emotion in some reply's as things got heated which I regret.

With all that said - I don't think I got what I was hoping from this post (parental perspectives) so I don't know if I'll reply again. Sincerely Good Luck to you all :)

END

Bye then.

person's world view is challenged

person leaves

the end

Gosh, that's a lot of word for say bugger all.

Did we get an acknowledgment that perhaps OP actually doesn't understand what feminists, who some might call gender identity critical, actually are fighting for? And that it seems there is a great deal of misrepresentation of what we are fighting for?

And that the language used in their posts across at least two threads is very 'dehumanising' in calling people 'the GCs' etc. And that OP has fallen into the very tired trope that activists use to dehumanise a group so that they can then 'demonise' the group.

But this time based on misrepresentations of the group?

Yo, OP, I'm sorry you've had a hard time with your family. Wishing you a peaceful day and good luck.

"Gender is so important we need to change laws to stop you being safe, but I can't say what it is."

Got yo, OP.

You also stated that female people were women, so completely denying the existence of trans men.

@pop91 I take an entirely different view of what you say you came here for, to me you came here to tell us what we think, then tell us how we should think, tell us what to do, then reprimand us for not doing what you tell us to do and finally tell us we are hateful for disagreeing with you.

You want laws changed and all of society changed on the basis of something you cannot explain nor define and have no qualms about the impact that will have, particularly on women.

That's what I've taken from your posts.

OP You said you were hoping for parental perspectives which you didn’t get. I think you did in that many people answering are parents so they were actually giving you their perspective at least in some way.

Most - probably all people - thought your parents were extremely abusive (whether they intended to be or not). Therefore you can guess that had you been their child they would not have wanted to treat you this way themselves and would have felt very sympathetic about your unhappiness and dysphoria and would have wanted to help you and love you, without sending you for religious conversion therapy.

You want laws changed and all of society changed on the basis of something you cannot explain nor define and have no qualms about the impact that will have, particularly on women.

That's what I've taken from your posts.

I am a late comer to the thread. But that seemed like the crux.

It feels like pushing a political agenda without actually understanding deeply what it means and how it then disadvantages others. All because of an ideological view point. Not one based in the reality of the sex class. All about the individual..... again.

@DomesticatedZombie

Yo, OP, I'm sorry you've had a hard time with your family. Wishing you a peaceful day and good luck.

Thank You!

[quote VestofAbsurdity]@pop91 I take an entirely different view of what you say you came here for, to me you came here to tell us what we think, then tell us how we should think, tell us what to do, then reprimand us for not doing what you tell us to do and finally tell us we are hateful for disagreeing with you.

You want laws changed and all of society changed on the basis of something you cannot explain nor define and have no qualms about the impact that will have, particularly on women.

That's what I've taken from your posts.[/quote]
you're wrong I wanted perspectives on how GCs treat their children who may have gender dysphoria.

All the current laws are good with me. I seek no change there.

@ScrollingLeaves

OP You said you were hoping for parental perspectives which you didn’t get. I think you did in that many people answering are parents so they were actually giving you their perspective at least in some way.

Most - probably all people - thought your parents were extremely abusive (whether they intended to be or not). Therefore you can guess that had you been their child they would not have wanted to treat you this way themselves and would have felt very sympathetic about your unhappiness and dysphoria and would have wanted to help you and love you, without sending you for religious conversion therapy.

I guess I wanted more than just they are abusive because I know that already.

I wanted to understand how GCs parents treat gender dysphoric children.

Perhaps you might consider that the "gender critical" women posting here are typically radical feminists. So, typically concerned with breaking down the gendered expectations placed on women (and by extension, men). We view gender as a structure used to control women in a patriarchal and misogynist society.

How do you think that women who view gender in that way might bring up their children? Or react if their children didn't conform to the gendered expectations of them in their society?

Perhaps stop calling us 'the GCs' first!

I happen to know a number of parents who are bringing up girls with significant gender dysphoria. They do what most parents do when they can afford private treatment, they allow their teenaged girls to get the mental health support they need to cope with their lives, they accept their child may have to one day consider medicalised options but in the mean time their child knows there is absolutely no expectation of fitting into any 'gender' stereotypes, they can just be themselves.

I actually don't understand your parents throwing out your clothes. My teen wears what ever they want, when ever they want. We shop for clothes worn by both sexes or unisex. Whatever hair cut they want. They also have interests that are associated with both sexes etc. And they can love people who are of either sex, it doesn't matter a jot to us.

But my teen also knows that they cannot change sex and that sometimes 'sex' matters more and that that should be perfectly acceptable.

The parents I know with 'transboys' also do not use language that reduces any female to a body part and have also taught their daughters that they benefit from the rights that feminists are fighting for that are based on protections for 'sex' rather than gender.

HTH