What is gender

[ohdelay]

Apologies for being late to the re-education, but what is gender now? I'm aware it used to be interchangeable with biological sex, but what is it now? What is defined by the word gender that is not covered by biological sex, sexuality/sexual preference or individual personality? I've heard the phenotype/perception by the world definition which doesn't fit very well and want to get my head around what we are actually talking about as it all sounds ridiculous.

People use the term to mean one or more of three things:

1. Synonym for biological sex
2. Inner 'essence' that relates to how masculine/feminine you do or don't perceive yourself to be.
3. The superstructure of how society interacts with biological sex, in terms of the behavioural expectations placed upon the sexes and the systems that have arisen from those expectations.

I only see validity in 3.

'Gender' is simply the new way for men to oppress women whilst giving their fantasies legitimacy.

Using number 3 "The superstructure of how society interacts with biological sex, in terms of the behavioural expectations placed upon the sexes and the systems that have arisen from those expectations." who defines the gender of an individual? Should it be society? This will vary based on the perception each member of society has of an individual. The individual? How can a person decide/enforce exactly how society (which is composed of individuals) interacts with them?

It's not really a measurable fact in that way. It's a tool of political analysis.

@tabbycatstripy

It's not really a measurable fact in that way. It's a tool of political analysis.

Analysis of what though? What is it?

But my view is that people do have a right to define how masculine/feminine they perceive themselves to be, and to ask that others use a particular name for them. I also think it's reasonable for people to be able to attain legal recognition of their 'gender' even though I think the concept is fluffy and has difficulties attached for the rest of society. It's not beyond us to have a system where people can adjust things for themselves so they feel more comfortable.

I draw red lines in two places: first, they can't force me to say anything or see them in any particular way, and second, it shouldn't affect single-sex spaces, where those are deemed to be necessary.

“Gender” is outdated sexist stereotypes. Hth.

As 3, it's to allow an analysis of power relationships. Using 'gender' as a tool enables us to talk about the impact of 'gendered' (read: sexed) expectations on female and male people.

Stonewall definition:

Gender

Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.

---

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms

So very broadly speaking, it's masculinity and femininity and everything in between. Which has sod-all to do with whether you have a male or female body.

Stonewall also say that "trans women are literally women" - not figuratively or anything similar. So it seems to mean whatever they want it to mean.

In my opinion, the people who are trying to make gender supersede sex in law and other policies (so people are men and women based on the gender they say they feel) are wrong to prioritise this. Sex still exists and in a small proportion of circumstances, matters a great deal. Particularly to those who are disadvantaged by their sex in any given situation.

Most statements that use the word "gender" can substitute the term "sex role stereotypes" and the meaning remains the same/ becomes clearer. So, often that's what gender means to me.

@PrelateChuckles

Stonewall definition:

Gender

Often expressed in terms of masculinity and femininity, gender is largely culturally determined and is assumed from the sex assigned at birth.

---

www.stonewall.org.uk/help-advice/faqs-and-glossary/list-lgbtq-terms

So very broadly speaking, it's masculinity and femininity and everything in between. Which has sod-all to do with whether you have a male or female body.

Stonewall also say that "trans women are literally women" - not figuratively or anything similar. So it seems to mean whatever they want it to mean.

In my opinion, the people who are trying to make gender supersede sex in law and other policies (so people are men and women based on the gender they say they feel) are wrong to prioritise this. Sex still exists and in a small proportion of circumstances, matters a great deal. Particularly to those who are disadvantaged by their sex in any given situation.

Thanks for that. Still disagree with it as a thing and don't think it qualifies as a definition. Masculinity and femininity seem to have cultural expectation based on biological sex covered, why the redefinition for a word that used to be synonymous with biological sex. They also are flexible enough in themselves to allow for change based on change in society.
I don't need a new word and can define myself by my biological sex (my XX programming), my sexuality/sexual preferences (what I want to interact with physically) and my individual personality (how I present myself to the world). I would like to know what my gender would add to my sense of self that isn't already covered.

Gender was derived from the French genre and Latin genus, apparently, meaning 'types' or 'kinds'.

@tabbycatstripy

Gender was derived from the French genre and Latin genus, apparently, meaning 'types' or 'kinds'.

Thanks @tabbycatstripy types of what though in this context? Kinds of humans?

Types of everything, I think. It was (apparently) associated with the two sexes as early as the fifteenth century. Then in the 1960s it became an academic field (as academic feminism evolved) and from there it progressed to the idea of 'gender' as something separable from sex in the individual, rather than as a lens through which to view the whole of a society and analyse relations between the sexes.

You will go round in circles with this because apparently words don't mean anything anymore.

What's the something though, the something separable from sex (assuming biological) in the individual? What in gender is not covered by biological sex? Is it the individual feelings associated with being that biological sex or a society expectation thing. I'm trying to get a clear idea of what we mean now by gender

...and that's deliberate. Because if no one knows what anything means then no one can be challenged.

@Soul11Soul

You will go round in circles with this because apparently words don't mean anything anymore.

This is where I'm at unfortunately. I can't engage until I know wtf we're talking about. It's in the title of the forum so didn't think a definition would be this hard.

'What's the something though, the something separable from sex (assuming biological) in the individual? What in gender is not covered by biological sex? Is it the individual feelings associated with being that biological sex or a society expectation thing.'

I think it's just how far they feel they conform or want to conform to the sex stereotypes they are familiar with.

@tabbycatstripy

'What's the something though, the something separable from sex (assuming biological) in the individual? What in gender is not covered by biological sex? Is it the individual feelings associated with being that biological sex or a society expectation thing.'

I think it's just how far they feel they conform or want to conform to the sex stereotypes they are familiar with.

So how masculine or feminine they feel in regard to their actual biological sex?

Roughly, yes. In their way of thinking, you're trans if there is a 'mismatch' between your physical sex and your perception of being male or female ('gender'), but all I'm able to get from this is that that 'perception of being male or female' relates to how closely they adhere to stereotypes, and how comfortable they feel in their physical bodies.

So a female who doesn't feel comfortable with the external sex characteristics of the female body, and who prefers to embody more masculine stereotypes, might say she has a 'male gender'.

@tabbycatstripy

Roughly, yes. In their way of thinking, you're trans if there is a 'mismatch' between your physical sex and your perception of being male or female ('gender'), but all I'm able to get from this is that that 'perception of being male or female' relates to how closely they adhere to stereotypes, and how comfortable they feel in their physical bodies.

So a female who doesn't feel comfortable with the external sex characteristics of the female body, and who prefers to embody more masculine stereotypes, might say she has a 'male gender'.

What is the perception of being male/female though? Is it the physical stuff? So gender is the biological sex you want to be?

(For me, those 'masculine' and 'feminine' attributes are social constructs and can change, but I think some of the people who use this language see them as more fixed or innate.)

I think it's just how far they feel they conform or want to conform to the sex stereotypes they are familiar with.

And those sex stereotyoes often have nothing to do with appearance stereotypes or personality stereotypes. So Alex Drummond is a woman, Angelina Jolie is a woman, Lea Delaria is a woman, Phillip Bunce is a woman, Harnaam Kaur is a woman. None of these people share anything in common apart from the fact that call themselves women. No one knows why they call themselves women because it has nothing to do with their genitals, their appearance, their personalities or anything remotely observable or measurable.

'What is the perception of being male/female though? Is it the physical stuff? So gender is the biological sex you want to be?'

The perception of being male or female in this way of thinking isn't strictly about the body. It's about masculinity and femininity. So a male person who believes he has a female 'gender' might feel much more comfortable dressing, speaking, moving as he perceives female people to dress, speak or move. The changes some people make to their bodies are secondary to that, and they address the discomfort ('dysphoria') that can be associated with feeling 'in the wrong body' vis-a-vis their internal perception.