Can I get a lesbian perspective on something please?

[GetGenderInTheBin]

I'm a straight gender non-conforming woman. For instance, I don't wear high heels, make-up, or push-ups bras.

Since joining the gender debate, I have often been called a "dyke", amongst many other insults. I think I get called this because I am gender non-conforming.

I am currently writing about my experiences as a GC feminist, and some of my writings are poetry. Is it okay for me to use the word "dyke" when referring to myself, in the same way that I might call myself a "TERF", "cunt", or "bitch" (i.e. in a way that is reclaiming the word). Or should words only be reclaimed by those that they're directing aimed at?

Thanks.

@ididntevennotice Not everyone. I'm a lesbian and I'm fine with OP using the word in literature. (I wouldn't be fine with her using it as a "reclaimed" slur face to face, as face to face usages are not ordinarily artistic or literary.)

Lesbian here. I'm one of those lesbians — older, feminist, radical — who is happy to call myself a dyke. Friends who know me well can call me a dyke. But it's a word we tend to use about ourselves, like the N-word.

You're not a lesbian, OP, so you can't be a dyke. Being a lesbian or a dyke isn't about what you look like or what you wear. It's not a character you can try on or dress up as.

Give me strength. It's bad enough having to fend off the TWs pretending they're lesbians. Are we now going to need to fight off straight women in leather jackets pretending they're lesbians too?

@SuperLoudPoppingAction

Would you not be bothered if someone thought 'oh wow - another lesbian in my local area/social circle/artistic medium/whatever - I'm not alone' and then they were disappointed or confused?

I have never called myself a lesbian, and I never will.

If someone looks at me, and then assumes that I am a lesbian based on my appearance, then I'd say that's their problem, not mine.

I am very sorry if I have caused any offense with this thread. It was not my intention.

I just wanted to have a discussion over this issue. I find writing to be therapeutic, which is useful when it comes to the gender issue.

Thank you to everyone who has contributed.

But OP if you call yourself a dyke, then you ARE calling yourself a lesbian. So don't.

I really can't tell if you're being willfully ignorant, deliberately obtuse, or genuinely don't understand. But the answer is - no you can't.

Dyke means lesbian so I don't really understand why you'd use it about yourself (outside of referencing being called it) if you're not gay! It's like if I put in a poem I'm bi (I'm not).

[quote Innocenta]@ididntevennotice Not everyone. I'm a lesbian and I'm fine with OP using the word in literature. (I wouldn't be fine with her using it as a "reclaimed" slur face to face, as face to face usages are not ordinarily artistic or literary.) [/quote]

Ok, let's assume I meant that OP clarification does not change any opinions; you knew what she meant just as much as the rest of us. Whichever side we sit, the clarification was unnecessary.

How many times do we have to say it, OP? Dyke = lesbian.
If you're not a lesbian it's not your word.

Maybe if you're trying to write a story about a dyke, or imagining on paper what it might be like to be a dyke it would be okay. But the idea of calling yourself a dyke as a therapeutic exercise seems off.

Sorry if I'm missing something. If this makes sense: On your writing, are you using "dyke" to reference yourself from your own perspective, or is it merely a description of how other people see you/refer to you?

If it's the latter, then I'd see no problem at all with it. If the former, not so much. "Lots of people see me as a lesbian, therefore I see myself as being equivalent to a lesbian" doesn't really work. I would say that it would make me angry to read it, but I'm young enough not to have had it used against me much during my lifetime (although it has been chucked around a lot during trans debates). For other people, the word would be more meaningful.

It's different to cunt and bitch. The literal meaning of those words are vulva/vagina and female dog respectively, neither of which are things that any human being actually is. So reclaiming them defangs the insult without looking like you're making a claim that you actually are a dog or a walking talking set of genitalia. The literal meaning of dyke is lesbian, so if you call yourself that it looks like you are using it as a factual term about yourself, since it can't be carrying the same insulting meaning it carries when used to mean "unattractive/unfeminine woman who might as well be a lesbian for all the use she is to men".

If you're using the word to describe what others have called you then that's fine

I’m a lesbian, really not into the whole reclaiming slurs thing, hate the word dyke, hate the word queer, if other gay people want to call themselves that then they crack on, but straight people is where I really draw the line. You’re a lesbian so you can’t reclaim a word that never belonged to you, whether you get incorrectly called it or not.

Not that there’s correct way to be called a dyke, but I mean whether people make the incorrect assumption that you’re a lesbian so they can call you homophobic slurs.

OP…. I wouldn’t use those words. You don’t want to confirm to gender social constructs, fine. We are all just people, many of us don’t fit those stereotypes and we just get on with it.

I'm a straight gender non-conforming woman. For instance, I don't wear high heels, make-up, or push-ups bras

I guess I'm GNC too, then. I am 35, have never once worn a pair of heels, gave up the push up bras at 21, and make up makes me look ill! (I also don't shave my legs, can't be arsed).

I don't think any of that relates to gender- or sex- at all.

I really, really dislike that word, though.
I don't think you can "reclaim" a word that isn't actually yours to reclaim.
Writing about how it's been used towards you is different.

@ATeamAmy

I don't wear high heels, make-up, or push-ups bras

In what world is this gender non conforming? The vast majority of women I know wear none of these things, but are unmistakably women, and "gender conforming" ones at that.

This.

Well, that's kind of my point; it may be a slur, but only I can choose whether or not to let it hurt me. Regardless of whether it is a slur or not it is my word, part of my identity and a very hard-won sense of pride in that identity, clawed back from nearly 60 years of contempt and beatings and ostracisation and that word.

It's all very well for OP to say "If someone looks at me, and then assumes I'm a lesbian based on my appearance, then I'd say that's their problem, not mine". She can go home, shake off the "insult" and live her ordinary straight life for the rest of the week, the month or her life. I don't get to walk out of the danger zone like that, and it riles me that she is so lacking in empathy that she can't even now understand why it isn't her concept to play with. There's a great prose poem by Michelle Cliff called "Claiming An Identity They Taught Me to Despise". Lesbians have all had to do that, and only we get to decide what those words mean for us.

Surely the OP is gender non conforming ?
In our world to conform to the gender (=sex role stereotype) includes a particular style of personal presentation which comprises make up, a proper hairstyle, shaved body hair, dresses rather than trousers and high heels rather than trainers.

If she isn't presenting like this then in appearance at least she is gender non conforming.
On the dyke issue I agree it's something you can't appropriate. I'd be interested to hear what lesbians think of the word 'queer' ? I know a lesbian/bi (female!) couple who use that word and it always makes me flinch, maybe because I'm so old.

I'm a lesbian and refer to myself as a dyke. I'm trying to imagine your poetry and I think I'd be mostly confused - dyke means lesbian. I get what you mean about reclaiming TERF in particular, and I'm delighted your response to being called a dyke is to shrug and uncomplicatedly recognise that being read as a (butch?) lesbian is no bad thing and so the intended insult doesn't insult you, but I don't think there are many turns of phrase, even poetic, where you can directly refer to yourself as a dyke and not appear to be, misleadingly, describing yourself as a lesbian.

Agree with @SapphosRock upthread, 'butch' might be a workable alternative.

The reason you can't reclaim the word is because the slur is misdirected - it's like an arrow that's missed its mark. It doesn't matter what the person making the slur thought, it matters whether it finds its target. Probably part of the reason you feel it doesn't hurt you as a slur is because you aren't carrying around the same weight of lesbophobia and discrimination that lesbians who have been called dyke and found it hurtful have. Some lesbians understand and feel all that context and feel for whatever reason they can shrug it off; in that circumstance, I don't see why they shouldn't reclaim the word - others don't wish to try and reclaim it and that is also a valid choice - the point is that you don't feel it in the same way because you are not in fact a lesbian.

@StillWeRise

Surely the OP is gender non conforming ? In our world to conform to the gender (=sex role stereotype) includes a particular style of personal presentation which comprises make up, a proper hairstyle, shaved body hair, dresses rather than trousers and high heels rather than trainers. If she isn't presenting like this then in appearance at least she is gender non conforming. On the dyke issue I agree it's something you can't appropriate. I'd be interested to hear what lesbians think of the word 'queer' ? I know a lesbian/bi (female!) couple who use that word and it always makes me flinch, maybe because I'm so old.

I think there are lots of different takes on what 'queer' means. It's not the word for me, but I did go through a phase of using it when tbh 'lesbian' felt quite a difficult label to wear, and possibly when i wanted to keep my options open for romantic involvement with men (but bi definitely didn't fit as it didn't reflect my reality).

I think at the moment it seems to imply an important allegiance with the trans liberation movement, in the same way that the suffragette colours have become so connected with GC feminism. But even before then, 'queer' suggested to me an alignment with certain politics which i wasn't quite signed up to.

I guess I also don't feel that it's my slur to reclaim, the way I feel ok using dyke.

I also think it has reached a point of meaninglessness as a label, which i guess suits some people but not others.

Frankly? I'm more interested in why you think not wearing a push up bra is gender non-conforming. I have massive boobs and i have never worn a push up bra. I sometimes wear high heels, usually docs. I rarely wear make up but when i do it's red lipstick and lots and lots of mascara. I like ballet, and i like playing with power tools. Am i only part-time gender non-conforming?

it's all quite strange.

@StillWeRise It varies massively, even within a marriage. My wife and I are incredibly demographically close (same age, social class, etc) and yet she's fine with 'queer' and I don't like it. I wouldn't prohibit it from being used or anything like that, but I don't personally feel it's reclaimed for me.

mmm, to me it's something that was directed at gay men primarily, especially historically and I feel it's theirs to reclaim if they choose. I also see it being more aligned to trans activism.

Historically it was always a word for the guys, and for the older guys at that; gay was for those who wanted to fight to change and ultimately join the system - ironically typified by Stonewall. Queer only came back into rebellious vogue after most of the battles had been won, I think. It's probably cynical of me to think it's easy to reject the work of the previous generation as conformist and assimilationist when they've already put all the work in and you're not now going to get arrested for raising an eyebrow at the wrong someone. I always found the new queer theorists' contempt for those of us who marched and worked and protested back in the day more than a little bit ungrateful..