"The answer Is Mumsnet, I believe"

[EmbarrassingHadrosaurus]

This is a good thread with contributions from Suzanne Moore and Hadley Freeman in response to 3 men who are perplexed by the level of "TERF representation in the UK elite".

It's a strong argument for the importance of MN's campaign about the Online Harms Bill. I hope Justine and MNHQ are proud.

Sarah Pedersen identified MN as a subaltern counterpublic in a recent paper (riffing off Nancy Fraser)

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4478528-theyve-got-an-absolute-army-behind-them-womens-cooperative-constellation-in-Scotland

The term subaltern counterpublic was conceptualized by Nancy Fraser (1997) as

“parallel discursive arenas where members of subordinated social groups invent and circulate counterdiscourses, which in turn permit them to formulate oppositional interpretations of their identities, interests, and needs” (p. 81).

counterpublic.wordpress.com/2012/10/01/an-introduction-to-counterpublics/

@CatSpeakForDummies

I think it's because trans people already had equal rights in the UK, so the argument is very different than in the US where there was still open discrimination. In the US they are fighting for rights, in the UK we are discussing the fine print. Unfortunately, twitter groups all the social justice people together and detail is lost.

What do you mean? Which rights do trans people have in the UK that they don't have in the US?

The problem is, many British young people don't either. They seem to be importing their politics and ideology wholesale from the USA and have very little idea about anything that happened here, the law, political (and religious) landscape and culture before the US-based social media and streaming services colonised their minds.

I've commented on this in a very different area to do with the differences in ingredients and the understanding of different ovens in the US and what it means when people are baking those recipes in the UK. People with no understanding of the differences argue with me all the time because it's just never occurred to them that the basics of egg sizes, the protein of flour content, the fat content of butter and various creams etc. is different.

Stuff as basic as that flies past them. With all the differences in the constituent states of the US (state v. federal) for various rights, I have no optimism that they can understand the cultural and other differences you outline for the UK.

@CatSpeakForDummies

I think it's because trans people already had equal rights in the UK, so the argument is very different than in the US where there was still open discrimination. In the US they are fighting for rights, in the UK we are discussing the fine print. Unfortunately, twitter groups all the social justice people together and detail is lost.

To this we can add, Americans assuming that the UK murders transwomen at the same rate as they do. Fortunately not a problem they've managed to export.

I definitely credit MN and this board for opening my eyes. I had a general 'it's not going to effect me and be kind' attitude until I got thoroughly educated.

I believe 100% on the rights of all people, including trans people, to live their lives and express themselves in any way that they wish 9without causing harm).

I believe 100% that the integrity of single sex spaces and the safeguarding of women and girls ought to be maintained completely.

I believe that those who call us TERFS are bigots.

On the assertion that Mumsnet feminists are right-wing:

The conservative right wants 'women' to be defined as 'adult members of the female sex' to keep that sex down. Gender critical women want 'women' to defined as 'adult members of the female sex' to fight the conservative right on that issue. And to fight the pseudoscience on this and to fight the regressive religious tenets all over the world, all of which are aimed at biologically female people, not at people who have abstract female gender identities.

Hardy Buckette
To this we can add, Americans assuming that the UK murders transwomen at the same rate as they do. Fortunately not a problem they've managed to export.

The rate at which trans women are murdered in the US is actually lower than the rate at which men, in general, are murdered. The high murder rates of trans women are largely based on statistics from Brazil. This article does some rough calculations on US data:

quillette.com/2019/12/07/are-we-in-the-midst-of-a-transgender-murder-epidemic/

And this is an actual study which shows that transgender people overall had lower rates of being victims of homicide than the rest

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551594/.

Hurrah for mumsnet then. Take a bow ladies.

"Came for the fat balls, stayed for the feminism" needs to go on a t-shirt, asap.

[quote nepeta]Hardy Buckette
To this we can add, Americans assuming that the UK murders transwomen at the same rate as they do. Fortunately not a problem they've managed to export.

The rate at which trans women are murdered in the US is actually lower than the rate at which men, in general, are murdered. The high murder rates of trans women are largely based on statistics from Brazil. This article does some rough calculations on US data:

quillette.com/2019/12/07/are-we-in-the-midst-of-a-transgender-murder-epidemic/

And this is an actual study which shows that transgender people overall had lower rates of being victims of homicide than the rest

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5551594/.[/quote]
I mean either way, the stuff about GC literally murdering transwomen clearly doesn't remotely hold up in the UK. For all that it's trotted out.

Oh dear me. A certain type of men really finds it very threatening when women find a forum in which they are allowed to express themselves.

I wonder why that is? Could it be because those men know full well that they have a habit of being nasty to women and don't want to be held accountable? Could it be that it makes it more difficult to take advantage of women? Well, bless their hearts. They better get over it because we are not going to put up and shut up

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude - 😂

Only enough funding for a single wanky scotch though?? I feel we've been duped 🤔

And Ross Douthat of all people! Ross, I've been reading you for years in the New York Times. You're smart enough, so I am not surprised you're also clever to being wary of women gathering together in groups, thinking, plotting, deviling eggs...

btw...Douthat probably isn't woke...just very Catholic and conservative. He mens well.

A common refrain in my house is "what does Mumsnet think?"

DD and DH have learned that the collective wisdom of the MN vipers is generally more informed, better sourced and more fulsome (with less batsittery) than other sources.

Recently DH was taking about planes and Ukraine and LO! Mumsnet supplied information.

Intelligent women talking. Mumsnet is indeed the answer.

I do wonder what Justine et al make of it.

@Delphinium20

And Ross Douthat of all people! Ross, I've been reading you for years in the New York Times. You're smart enough, so I am not surprised you're also clever to being wary of women gathering together in groups, thinking, plotting, deviling eggs...

btw...Douthat probably isn't woke...just very Catholic and conservative. He mens well.

All of these people mean well. They just have a blind spot for the consequences that other people will need to live with or they've decided it's a reasonable trade-off. The cluestick is that it's men deciding on an outcome that benefits men and disadvantages women so it doesn't merit more than a flicker of thought.

I also wonder how much they want to disavow themselves from compelling us to have the scissors of self-censorship in our heads? They don't want to us to have discussion fora where we can swap ideas, unfettered and unsupervised by men.

They despise us because they have chosen the path of compromise rather than confrontation with censorship and they're so busy denying it that they outgroup those of us who want to talk.

@StopStartStop

Yes to mumsnet. But we are also advantaged in having Kellie-Jay Keen, a passionate little firebrand of a woman and a great charismatic leader. She's fucking ace.

My admiration for her will never end. Such guts and bravery.

I do wonder what Justine et al make of it.

I do hope Justine et al are extremely fucking proud of themselves. raises wine glass

I would like to force feed those three fools the Notorious Weetabix Banana Horror until they learned the error of their ways.

Sorry not sorry.

@terryleather

I would like to force feed those three fools the Notorious Weetabix Banana Horror until they learned the error of their ways.

Sorry not sorry.

That's going a bit far, surely.

Notorious Banana Weetabix Horror or this...

"Weetabix on Twitter: "Why should bread have all the fun, when there's Weetabix? Serving up @HeinzUK Beanz on bix for breakfast with a twist. #ItHasToBeHeinz #HaveYouHadYourWeetabix t.co/R0xq4Plbd0" / Twitter" mobile.twitter.com/weetabix/status/1359074254789165059?lang=en

Hadley is on fire in that thread 👏🏻

@terryleather

I would like to force feed those three fools the Notorious Weetabix Banana Horror until they learned the error of their ways.

Sorry not sorry.

Come now, we’re not monsters.

It’s like they’re annoyed with the sex class that must not be named meeting and discussing and organising. But how do they know what we identify as? Do they know the difference in some way? They seem so annoyed with the AFAB people. My AFAB brain is very confused.

He mens well indeed

Come now, we’re not monsters.

Speak for yourself!

I stay for the sporn ^^