Help me with the argument that trans rights aren't the same as gay rights hence we are NOT on "the wrong side of history"

[flashbac]

I'm sure you've all heard the the line, constantly pushed, "you're on the wrong side of history, the gay rights movement went through the same resistance" and so on.

I have an argument about who each sets of rights affects hence the difference but there has to be a better line than "this thing doesn't affect me personally so it's fine whereas that thing redefines my identity and seeks to erase the biological reality on which my oppression is based hence its not fine"
Or am I just lacking in conviction/confidence here?

They overlap by the metric of having a penis and testicles

Well, that, and every single incident of a trans person committing a violent or sexual assault in the press being male.

If trans people offended like the opposite sex, it would be all transmen sex offenders and violent attackers wouldn't it?

When you see "83 year old woman arrested for dismembering a woman", you can be pretty confident they mean a man saying he's a woman, and be right.

If they said "man", it definitely won't really be a woman saying she's a man.

You hardly need a study for this - just follow the press. Maybe there's some potential difference between "transwomen" and other men (in which direction?), but it's clear they're a million miles away from women (including "transmen").

The fact transphobic voices have to disagree with the lead author..... and dont have a single study that says what they claim where they can agree with the lead author..... is quite clear where the lack of critical thinking lies.

We don't need a study because we have no reason to think that these male people are less statistically violent than other members of their sex. You do. It's your claim, you back it up.

I don't use the Swedish study because the sample size, despite being the whole transsexual population of Sweden during the given period decades ago, is too small, and bears little resemblance to the much wider trans cohort today.

There are no rights lacking for transpeople, the remaining rights being sought are rights for men, to enter women's & girls spaces, rape crisis centres & the like. There will be nothing left of women's competittive sport if male bodied people take part. Bodies swim, NOT identities. AND most importantly, mothers should be really worried when rapid onset gender dysphoria comes for your children. Young girls having double mastectomies & hysterectomies is scandalous & irriversible

@TheWhalrus

If you need help in justifying a certain standpoint, perhaps this means that your thinking is based on prejudice and not logic or evidence?

I think when you've always been someone who cares about equality and supporting vulnerable people, when you first have someone saying something like this to you it knocks you a bit. Nothing wrong with confirming all side's points and thinking about where you actually stand.

Or should people just accept being called a bigot without evidence?

@NecessaryScene

They overlap by the metric of having a penis and testicles

Well, that, and every single incident of a trans person committing a violent or sexual assault in the press being male.

If trans people offended like the opposite sex, it would be all transmen sex offenders and violent attackers wouldn't it?

When you see "83 year old woman arrested for dismembering a woman", you can be pretty confident they mean a man saying he's a woman, and be right.

If they said "man", it definitely won't really be a woman saying she's a man.

You hardly need a study for this - just follow the press. Maybe there's some potential difference between "transwomen" and other men (in which direction?), but it's clear they're a million miles away from women (including "transmen").

I think there was one female, who pretended to be a man with a penis and had to inflate said penis to have sex with a woman, but I am sowing mange tout right now so can't go off to find the reference. I am nothing if not fair to both 'sides'.

Quote from the Swedish study:

‘In this study, male-to-female individuals had a higher risk for criminal convictions compared to female controls but not compared to male controls.

SunbowRainshine31: Some trans people have experienced homophobia, pre and post transition.

So what? Some curly-permed people have experienced homophobia, pre and post hairdresser visits. Doesn't mean having a curly perm is anything like being gay. Nor does it make curlyophobia anything like homophobia.

What rights are they missing? The only things they seem to want are an all-access pass to women's spaces and free plastic surgery, neither of which is a right. Otherwise, they have all the same rights as everyone else plus rights not to be discriminated against based on their belief in gender identity ideology. Also, in the gay rights movement, men weren't trying to get into women's spaces or be on women's sports teams etc. Gay people weren't asking for their rights to infringe on anyone else, they were just asking for the same rights as everyone else. Trans activists are asking for everyone else to participate in their belief to the point of infringement on women's rights.

Twitter post from Simon Edge, author

I’ve just seen footage of last night’s hate parade. One of the chants seems to have been ‘cis scum off our streets’. Since ‘cis’ means ‘not trans’, they’re saying 99% of Manchester should be locked indoors. Does no elected representative have a problem with this? #WPUKManchester

‘It’s just like the gay rights struggle…’ I went on tons of gay rights marches before this lot were born. No gay rights protest was ever mad enough to denounce straight people as scum or call for them to be kept off the streets. Do bookmark this one for the next time they say it

twitter.com/simonjedge/status/1507260283466792976?t=q35NdWU1-xEmE60GUkyHvg&s=19

Gay rights didn't include the right to walk around naked in a women's changing room or a women's shelter with an erect penis.

Gay rights activists didn't wishy to exclude women from society and didn't scream abuse at survivors of male violence discussing their trauma.

LabourWomen’sDeclaration 🐐 🐐 (@LabWomenDec) Tweeted:
We'd like to hear from some @UKLabour and trade union leaders. @Keir_Starmer, you've called for more "more light, less heat", will you condemn the mobs who try to stop Labour and trade union women meeting to discuss our rights peacefully? #WPUKManchester twitter.com/LabWomenDec/status/1507128732166889479?s=20&t=qwREJZJgF2SIORFkgYN69Q

So a man could identify as a woman then a man then a woman every 5 minutes if he wanted and it’s legal

My DH is a Police Officer, and has had this happen mid way through a body search. It's beyond ridiculous.

Gay men never tried to compete against women in female sports.

Gay men never told lesbians that they needed to sleep with them and their lady penis.

The author stated quite clearly it was not a 'male pattern' of criminality.... and certainly did not overlap in sexual crimes.

Having read the whole conversation on which the article was based, I can tell you that that author of the report only reported that the transgender group did not commit crime at a higher rate than men and stressed that there was no evidence to suggest that they were more likely to be sex offenders. At no time did she say specifically that they were less likely to commit crime. However, she did say that the younger group appeared to have a different pattern, but as there were so few of them, no conclusions could be drawn.

I think it is beyond obvious she is making the point that trans women, and cisgender men do not overlap.

If you are struggling with that, there's not much people with better comprehension can do to coach you through it, this is basic stuff.

No it isn't.

mbmpolicy.files.wordpress.com/2021/04/mbm-briefing-on-dhjene-et-al.-april-2021-1.pdf

If you are struggling with that, there's not much people with better comprehension can do to coach you through it, this is basic stuff.
Rereas the original study and you will see that the numbers of that cohort were not large enough to draw any conclusions.

Reread

Also MoJ statistics, regarding transwomen sex offenders and female sex offenders show dramatically that males who identify as women commit sex offences at a rate which in no way mirrorsthe tiny numbers of female offending.

The review I posted explains it very well. Also if Dhjehne wants her study to mean something else than the claim it explicitly makes, she needs to revise it and resubmit it for peer review, not have cosy chats with obscure TRAs published on websites no one reads or on Reddit and expect people to follow that.

As I have said many times, for me the study has too many limitations and I do not believe the trans population today bears much resemblance to the one in the study.

In 2018 the number of convicted female sex offenders was about 120, whilst the number of male prisoners who identified as women and were convicted sex offences numbered 68. Given the huge numbers of women compared to male trans identifying people the difference is stark.

Also it depends how these female and trans offenders have been counted, some of the female prisoners could be MTF.

Just wanted to say thanks to all who posted with helpful links and arguments!

This recent article (www.thetimes.co.uk/article/2de79110-b1cc-11ec-8570-b43daaf58ea1?shareToken=e640bb224f0fabc67b2629f22e1370b9) provides the clearest short summary of the differences between the trans rights and gay rights movements:

The trouble is that transgender identity is not like the struggle for racial or sexual equality. The civil rights movement did not seek to reclassify who is black and who is white. The gay rights movement did not seek to reclassify who is gay and who is straight. In prioritising new theories of “gender identity” over the universally understood principle of biological sex, the extremists in the trans movement sought nothing less than to reclassify how humans are categorised across every part of public life, in sports, prisons and hospitals.

“Some people are gay, get over it”, was a brilliant slogan, because it was based upon a simple truth. “Some people are trans, get over it”, doesn’t work when a female swimmer has just been robbed of a college scholarship by a biological male, or a rape survivor is made to feel she’s the one with the problem when there’s someone with a penis in the women’s refuge. Feminists say that far from being progressive, the movement follows a pattern as old as the hills: women being forced to step aside to accommodate the feelings of biological males. The women who speak up to assert their boundaries are vilified as witches, troublemakers and bigots. Just ask JK Rowling.