Help me with the argument that trans rights aren't the same as gay rights hence we are NOT on "the wrong side of history"

[flashbac]

I'm sure you've all heard the the line, constantly pushed, "you're on the wrong side of history, the gay rights movement went through the same resistance" and so on.

I have an argument about who each sets of rights affects hence the difference but there has to be a better line than "this thing doesn't affect me personally so it's fine whereas that thing redefines my identity and seeks to erase the biological reality on which my oppression is based hence its not fine"
Or am I just lacking in conviction/confidence here?

The demonisation of innocent members of both groups is why transphobia is similar to homophobia.

Say what now?

I get your point is that saying 'trans women' are a threat to women 'demonises' 'trans women' however the issue is that it is men that are the threat, and as nobody can ever tell us what the difference between a man and a 'trans woman' actually is, the risk is the same.

When in actual fact, it is different, as the risk TO women increases when a man says he is a 'trans woman' [shown by 20% of the male population in prison being there for sex related offences, which increases to 50% when they identify as 'trans'.]

So it isn't 'demonisation' is it. It is 'showing the facts of the matter'.

And yes in safeguarding, we look for outliers. That's the point of it.

So eg a man is harassing a woman in a club, she escapes him to the toilet (very usual), that man can follow her and if anyone tries to throw him out he can say he identifies as a woman and claim transphobia

It's not OK to follow someone into a toilet harrassing them whatever your gender. That person (whoever they were) would be thrown out anyway because of their behaviour, regardless of their gender.

Claiming to be female would be an absolute moot point.

It's not OK to follow someone into a toilet harrassing them whatever your gender. That person (whoever they were) would be thrown out anyway because of their behaviour, regardless of their gender.

No, silly. The woman would be thrown out for daring to call him a man.

Jane Clare Jones blog is brilliant

The groups who target both in this way, attacking the entire class of people based on outliers, whilst ignoring the same outlier behaviours in heterosexual and cisgender people, are identical.

There's no such thing as "cisgender". And a lot of homophobia comes from the trans movement itself.

But this is simply why mumsnet has a transphobic reputation.

When pointed out, people double down.

Exclusively using data and talking points generated by anti-trans groups.

99% of trans people are innocent members of society, the same as 99% of cisgender, or non-trans, people.

You wouldnt think that reading this forum or the anti-trans groups.

This isn't an "anti trans" group. It's a pro women group.

TRA ideology is inherently homophobic, the two have nothing in common

I'm old enough to have marched for gay rights, they wanted the same rights but didn't wish to take rights away.

I'd support a third space and campaign with them to have a space like male and female, but I can't support taking away from women (and how it isn't men that are meant to make their space more inclusive)

'TRA ideology' is a thought terminating cliche.

Every mainstream lesbian and gay org supports trans rights, on a global scale.

Its the only reason LGB Alliance exists, because most lesbian & gay orgs, support trans rights.

With all due respect, the mainstream lesbian and gay orgs, are probably better informed, than on here.

To explain that last post further....

'Tra ideology'.

Seems to consist of things trans people consistently deny.

Such as 'gender identity is based on stereotypes'.
When trans people consistently and repeatedly deny it..... but people choose to keep repeating it and assign it as part of this wider trope of 'tra ideology' or 'gender ideology'...

It is meant to be a thought terminating cliche, it is meant to stop people thinking about things more rationally and logically.

But also, when trans people consistently deny these motivations, to repeatedly assign it to them, is an attempt to frame them as liars, as part of demonising them.

It's just lazy. You can't simply say "X is like Y" and that's an end to it. You need to ask yourself: Is X really like Y? In what ways is it like Y? In what ways isn't it like Y?

In the 1970s the group Paedophile Information Exchange had some limited success in persuading progressive types that paedophilia was a sexual orientation just like homosexuality. If you opposed the rights of children to have sex with adults, you were just as bad as someone denying human rights to homosexuals.

The point is not that trans rights campaigners are like PIE, but that just because a campaign group says X is like Y doesn't mean that X is actually like Y. There are plenty of ways in which it might be very different.

@SunbowRainshine31

But this is simply why mumsnet has a transphobic reputation.

When pointed out, people double down.

Exclusively using data and talking points generated by anti-trans groups.

99% of trans people are innocent members of society, the same as 99% of cisgender, or non-trans, people.

You wouldnt think that reading this forum or the anti-trans groups.

Whenever I read the trans comments on mumsnet, I always think they read like they are accusing the vast majority of trans women of being rapists or trying to harm women, when I expect most of them just want to live their lives as the gender they believe they are.

Oh look a swarm

If gender identity isn't based on stereotypes, I suggest you tell mermaids to stop using their GI Joe / barbie "gender spectrum" to explain what gender is, then

Yes, thats why its the wrong side of history.

Demonising innocent people, is not the right side, thats for sure.

If gender identity isn't based on stereotypes, I suggest you tell mermaids to stop using their GI Joe / barbie "gender spectrum" to explain what gender is, then

Trans people have universally said its not about stereotypes, most of which being assigned are gender expression anyway, not identity.

You can't talk about gender, without using the words of gender.

You can't name your favourite colour, without mentioning colours.

The fact trans people use the language of gender to explain their experience, then tell you it has nothing to do with stereotypes.... repeating that it is..... makes it clear some people are really not interested in discussing trans people, but simply interested in asserting their own beliefs onto them.

Is two people a swarm?

Right so it is based on stereotypes then

Demonising innocent people, is not the right side, thats for sure.

So why are you demonising women who are only fighting to maintain their rights and ensure that safeguarding policies, based on the real threat posed by members of the opposite sex, are not bypassed by allowing any member of the male sex to access female only spaces, simply by stating that they too are women.

The fact trans people use the language of gender to explain their experience, then tell you it has nothing to do with stereotypes....

This makes no sense. How do you think a male person perceives they "feel like a woman" then, exactly? All of it is about stereotypes.

Whenever I read the trans comments on mumsnet, I always think they read like they are accusing the vast majority of trans women of being rapists or trying to harm women

Link to some of these "trans comments" so we can see what you're talking about, because I only see women who are perfectly aware that males commit most sex crime and other violent crime, and are responsible for most sexual harassment.

It's not about gender identity, that is irrelevant. Most of the women you are referring to simply don't accept that it has any bearing on sex. It's about males, and our safety, privacy and dignity. Don't try to paint it as a special fear of MTF trans people only. It's about all male people.

Referring to trans women as if they are identical to cis men on the basis of being male, is basic transphobia.

Whatabouting and finding reasons to pretend all males are the same, is not only unconvincing to most people who support trans people, its blatant sexism.

Cisgender men, and transgender women, do not overlap on any behavioral metric.

Unless you attempt to propagandize that with dodgy data and rhetoric from anti-trans groups.
Whilst people who hold anti-trans prejudice might lap up those 'interpretations'.... they dont stand up to unbiased scrutiny, at all.

Trans women are male tho

Calling people trsansphobic doesn't work here, you might as well call us witches

How is it transphobia? I don't subscribe to your gender identity ideology. This is protected in the Equality Act 2010, as established in a recent court judgement.

They are all male to me. I don't make any distinctions, and there is no evidence that they behave any differently to other males in terms of male crime rates. You can look at the prison service data.

@SunbowRainshine31

Yes, thats why its the wrong side of history.

Demonising innocent people, is not the right side, thats for sure.

The vast majority of males as a whole are decent people with no intention to harm women. Them being denied access to women through single sex spaces is not a demonisation or punishment of men. It is a measure taken to protect women against the minority of males who would harm them.

Transwomen are a subset of the male sex class- no matter how they identify. There is nothing to indicate that they are substantially less likely to harm women than any other male. Why should they be treated differently than other members of their sex class?