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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

DD says her classmates are sick of gender indoctrination

80 replies

LittleWhingingWoman · 22/03/2022 10:17

DD is at high school where they have had their fifth gender training so far this year. Nothing on violence against girls and women - nothing on race - nothing on disability - it's ALL gender religion being taught.

Anyway she says apart from a couple of attention seeking middle class white girls who talk incessantly about gender - the rest of her class are becoming sick of it. The boys in particular are fed up of hearing about it and it's becoming a subject that is getting eyerolls as soon as it's mentioned. There are children like herself who have various disabilities and who come from mixed race families who in particular are feeling that only one kind of diversity is ever discussed and that the kids who are attracted to it are ones who would never be regarded as special if they they weren't identifying into it.

I suppose there is hope in knowing that even with the constant indoctrination, many kids really don't believe it. She says a group of girls police the other kids language and shriek "transphobia" at anyone who doesn't comply. However the mini inquisition (again white middle class girls) are now dreaded amongst the regular kids who are at school for you know... learning stuff like maths and science and biology etc.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 22/03/2022 14:37

It's attitudes like this that make me understand why some kids are so vulnerable to this stuff.

They are vulnerable and being told by teachers that changing sex is perfectly possible.

It is down to the teachers in my opinion, they should not spout this bullshit in the first place.

Laniania · 22/03/2022 14:40

That really sucks for the mixed race kids and kids with disabilities who don't get to feel seen or have their struggles and achievements acknowledged in the same way. It's not fair. This kind of teaching shouldn't be driven by what's most currently in the public eye. Incredible if they have gender training but no anti-racism training or disability awareness.

CharSiu · 22/03/2022 14:40

@NonnyMouse1337 I am really interested in your comment about white people being considered lowest of the low in certain circles. I’m not white but have met people that feel almost guilty and fear their own as it’s referred to sometimes white privilege.

BootsAndRoots · 22/03/2022 14:53

Gender identity is one of the things privileged people use to reassert their dominance in a culture that promotes diversity.

Rich middle class girls are not going to get any preferential treatment and so use gender ideology to get that treatment.

purpleboy · 22/03/2022 14:55

@UserNow

*Do you want to pretend these groups don't exist within schools? They certainly do, it's not nice at all but it's absolutely fact.

If you don't like my wording fair enough, but as a presumed adult you should be perfectly capable of disagreeing with someone without resorting to insults.*

@purpleboy

You, a presumed adult, just judged contemporaries of your children as 'outsiders, they are not popular, clever, sporty, pretty, funny kids.
They are the ones who sit on their own at lunch, who refuse to play sports, don't get involved in school activities'

I mean, honestly, when I look back at my high school class, a lot of those kids are the ones who are now phenomenally successful. I've always advised my kids to find the outsiders and befriend them as people who are having to navigate life are likely to turn out the be the most interesting in the long run, but that's not the point of this. The point is if this kind of shallow, surface judgement is what you're teaching your kids/daughters (pretty? really?), you can hardly be surprised if the kids you're 'othering' find something that makes them feel less othered.

Funny too, because I remember your name from another thread where you were insisting that private school kids are more polite than state school kids (mine are private, by the way).

Honestly I'm not sure what your point it🤷🏽‍♀️

You have no idea what I teach my kids, or even what experience they have at school, or indeed myself. So don't try to insinuate the way I bring up my children is wrong when you literally have no clue.

It is just a fact, there are groups within school,who are considered popular and those who are not, if you took insult to it then that's up to you to deal with you reaction, it's far from ideal but there we are
There are groups of girls who wear fake lashes, make up, spend a lot of time on their appearance, they are considers the pretty girls. I'd say that's subjective, but doesn't change being viewed that way amongst their peers.
School isn't always a lovely place especially if you don't fit in with what's considered cool, I remember it well.
As other postered have said no wonder they get involved in this, it's a way for them to belong to something and feel a part of a group. It's human nature to want to belong, but there is no point in denying a potential cause for these young people to get involved.

purpleboy · 22/03/2022 14:57

@UserNow insisting is probably a stretch, but I suppose you need to keep your narrative somehow.Confused

CatSpeakForDummies · 22/03/2022 15:04

My 11yo (ASD) is already over it thanks to an attention seeking pronoun flip flopper who first developed gender fluidity age 6. I think even the most enthusiastic cheerleaders have moved on to other causes, it's been so tedious (even Pokemon only gets a year of interest from this age group).

I'm actually glad that she's essentially immunised against discovering this wonderful cause at high school.

MangyInseam · 22/03/2022 15:06

I tend to think that a lot of schools just spend too much time, objectively, on diversity stuff, and it's also not spent in a way that is very targeted.

How much of it, be it about gender, sexuality, sex, disability, race, has any evidence base to back up the idea that it is effective?

My kids school has huge issues with behaviour, bullying, and just kids being rude. They are also indoctrinated constantly with all of these diversity initiatives.

Guess what - they do nothing. The problems are not there because the kids are unaware that they are meant to be tolerant and embrace diversity. There may be a few cases in some places where that happens, but I don't think that is the general case - tolerance and inclusion is the number one message of schools, television programs, etc for kids. In cases where it is really the problem, of course it should be addressed.

But a lot of it is box ticking for the secular religion, just like some societies have box ticking for traditional religion. Dead religion, either way.

SingToTheSky · 22/03/2022 15:13

One thing that may have helped my DD to see how ridiculous this all is: she’s been having some issues with a few kids at school. Lots of following, violence threats etc.

One of many many incidents actually got dealt with. ONE.

The one where a boy used the word “tranny”.

Now DD being still a believer in gender nonsense was keen to report it and pleased they talked to the boy who said it. But she did see my point when I said it shows where the school’s priorities are that they refused to deal with any of the other things this boy was doing to her.

Beachsidesunset · 22/03/2022 15:20

I like the story of the school that created gender neutral toilets - after a quick discussion, the children decided the upstairs toilets were the boys' and the downstairs were the girls'. More sensible than the teachers.

Alcoh · 22/03/2022 15:28

My teenagers roll their eyes at it all and say they went to school to learn and play with their mates and not have sexuality and gender ideology shoved down their throats daily.

Alcoh · 22/03/2022 15:29

Yep sad thing is they can’t say anything. They are taught to hold their own belief system secret.

JaninaDuszejko · 22/03/2022 15:40

I think so much of diversity training is about gender identity because Stonewall are very organised at selling it. At work we've had Stonewall training (all about pronouns) and have had mental health training supplied by Mind (very good, mainly common sense as you might expect). But nothing on sexism, racism, ablism, religious tolerance or indeed homophobia.

purpleboy · 22/03/2022 15:41

@UserNow seriously get off your high horse. You've made a huge amount of incorrect assumptions so far.
Do I really have to say it's not very nice just for you to understand the point?
Its the internet, tone isn't always distinguishable, but don't jump straight to the worst case assumption.
It's a waste of everyone's time

Calennig · 22/03/2022 17:03

I can't help feeling it's all for attention, and those well balanced kids don't get sucked into it because they have plenty of other things keeping them occupied.

It's not the MC kids here - but the one in care or one with alcoholic parent or difficult relationship with step parent.

DD1 and DS seemed to get a lot of this at school DS after inital confusion just eye rolls at it all - DD1 I thought was fine then hit her group of friends - college hasnt' been the huge reset we hoped just dialed down and she does think about things a bit more. DD2 seems more bemused - though every time she tries to have a family talk DD1 shuts her down - and in response more shrug whatever about it.

It's still very much a thing with DH Univeristy course students.

It's still there in the zeitgeist -- but for my DC it was pushed by the schools top down and by a youth group they attended till we realised so not sure it will have staying power of previous "youth" movements and as MangyInseam says not convinced way it's approached as a subject is having any postive effects for anyone - or just getting back ups.

Abhannmor · 22/03/2022 17:04

Three lectures about transgender people , the safest demographic in Europe. It was heartbreaking to read about that poor gay man beaten and stamped to death in Cardiff , one of whose assailants was a 16 year old girl. She showed no remorse afterwards , merely remarking ' I needed that'. A workshop on gay rights would not go amiss. Angry

NonnyMouse1337 · 23/03/2022 09:01

[quote CharSiu]@NonnyMouse1337 I am really interested in your comment about white people being considered lowest of the low in certain circles. I’m not white but have met people that feel almost guilty and fear their own as it’s referred to sometimes white privilege.[/quote]
Hello @CharSiu !

To expand on what I said earlier - Some people have a tendency to get carried away with any kind of viewpoint or movement. There are many good things about Western civilizations, but there have also been bad aspects of it, such as colonisation, slavery etc. It is good to acknowledge and talk about the bad as well as the good, so we learn from it, and understand how this has shaped our societies. Most people would agree with this.

Some people are unable to have a balanced outlook, though. They are only interested in focusing on the bad / negative side. To them, Western civilization is pure evil with no redeeming features. Every white person to them is inherently evil or racist or stained with this sinfulness. All the problems in the world and all the problems faced by people who are not white is because of white people as a whole. Ironically, many who hold this belief are themselves white. The self-loathing would be funny, but these activist types are zealous about embedding these crazy ideas in policies and institutions.

They conveniently avoid the fact that most of human history has been defined by colonisation and slavery and wars. That would shatter the myth that white people are uniquely bad. They cannot acknowledge that humans of all skin colours have done terrible things to one another and continue to do so.

Anyway, so if a white person subscribes to the notion that all white people are inherently evil and racist, and the social circles they hang out in are also pushing this ideology, then this can affect their mindset and behaviours. I've seen these types - lots of grovelling and apologising about one's 'white privilege', fawning and obsessing over black and brown people (as long as these 'noble but downtrodden savages' toe the ideological line though). They don't like those of us who disagree with them. Grin

There's a bizarre and interesting dynamic in these social circles. You have to declare your 'privileges' and apologise profusely for things you have no control over such as skin colour, sexual orientation and lack of disabilities. Being straight and white is considered very boring, very plain and akin to being a racist. So that's the lowest rung. The more 'oppression' points you can gather, the higher up the social ladder you can climb and gain respect and admiration. People end up unconsciously playing this game.

Those with darker skin tones automatically move up a few levels and can use this to their advantage to look down on and guilt trip those in their group with white skin. So if you're white and want some kind of respect and deference, there's a real motivation to come up with labels and identities. You can't identify as a skin colour yet (give it time), so the best identity labels are the ones that are the most vague and least verifiable - queer, trans, non-binary etc are the best ones. You can also throw in 'neurodivergent' or some other hidden disability to bump yourself up a few more rungs. Now you are viewed with much more respect and positivity, and you in turn can look down on other white people who don't adopt such vacuous labels.

If you're business savvy, you can also write a book or become a 'diversity' spokesperson - it's now acceptable to talk about your 'oppressions' and your 'personal journey' and have an opinion on anything and everything. Smile

Babdoc · 23/03/2022 09:53

MangyInSeam, religion is very far from “dead”. There are 2.3 billion Christians for a start - a third of the world population.
As one myself, I can’t help thinking that a firm faith, and the knowledge that God loves them in their own body, whatever it looks or feels like, would be a good defence against gender woo, or seeking some silly cult to try and feel a sense of belonging that is lacking in secular society, for marginalised children/teens such as the autistic or gay who wonder why they are “other”.

user1497207191 · 23/03/2022 09:58

@NonnyMouse1337

There are many good things about Western civilizations, but there have also been bad aspects of it, such as colonisation, slavery etc.

It wasn't just "Western" civilizations though was it? Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, Russia, etc have all done similar. Both the Middle East and Asia were very active in taking African slaves, for example.

NonnyMouse1337 · 23/03/2022 10:04

[quote user1497207191]@NonnyMouse1337

There are many good things about Western civilizations, but there have also been bad aspects of it, such as colonisation, slavery etc.

It wasn't just "Western" civilizations though was it? Eastern Europe, Africa, Asia, Russia, etc have all done similar. Both the Middle East and Asia were very active in taking African slaves, for example.[/quote]
Well yes, precisely. That's why I also wrote

They conveniently avoid the fact that most of human history has been defined by colonisation and slavery and wars. That would shatter the myth that white people are uniquely bad. They cannot acknowledge that humans of all skin colours have done terrible things to one another and continue to do so.

CharSiu · 23/03/2022 10:38

@NonnyMouse1337 thanks for your very insightful post. I tick lots of boxes, woman, not white and now disabled.

I am sure I have met people who are like this and have been deeply suspicious they want me as a friend because they can tick I have an ethnic mate box. Sounds awful doesn’t it but I have really wondered about this.

I mean my own Grandmother and a concubine because my Grandfather had a concubine for Gods sake had bound feet, some of the last women to endure this as outlawed in 1912, all for the pleasure of men.

Yes being dreadful isn’t exclusive to being white.

MoonOnASpoon · 23/03/2022 10:41

Great post Nonny. A detransitioner on Twitter recently talked about being drawn to being trans as a way to assuage the guilt of being white.

Re colonialism, slavery etc. - it should be possible to both understand that humans of all ethnicities and colours have done (and still do) these things, and to acknowledge that right now in history, there’s a big legacy of white European colonialism that needs to be addressed and accounted for - without that having to descend into goodies and baddies and tiresome self-flagellation.

What I find really interesting is that when you look at this happening, the priority for the “privileged” white or western person is to scramble (or be pushed by bullying or ostracism) up the greasy pole to identify out of white western privilege or grab onto something, anything, that allows you not to be at the bottom and hated. That’s understandable especially in the young, but it’s ultimately basically selfish and privileged behaviour in itself.

You don’t have to identify out of privilege. It would be better to say yes here I am, white, western middle class and undoubtedly privileged. I have to live with that, and do my best to raise others up (e.g. by donating to causes if I can, by thinking about who I employ, publish or promote if I have those powers, by trying to understand and avoid prejudice even if I sometimes fail, by political campaigning for equality). To accept the guilt or discomfort because it’s not actually as bad as what millions of less privileged people endure, and do your best.

MangyInseam · 24/03/2022 01:36

@Babdoc

MangyInSeam, religion is very far from “dead”. There are 2.3 billion Christians for a start - a third of the world population. As one myself, I can’t help thinking that a firm faith, and the knowledge that God loves them in their own body, whatever it looks or feels like, would be a good defence against gender woo, or seeking some silly cult to try and feel a sense of belonging that is lacking in secular society, for marginalised children/teens such as the autistic or gay who wonder why they are “other”.
Dead religion is religion that is practiced in a mechanistic or purely social way that gives no real meaning to the person doing it.

In our society there are a significant number of people who don't practice any of the traditional religions, their worldview is a kind of secular position that is widely embraced, and it tends to be what is taught in schools, passively, as being the lowest common denominator. And like traditional religion it has both a philosophical and ethical elements - little bit of empirical materialism is the philosophical component, and the ethical element is diversity and inclusion.

What I am suggesting is that for many of the people preaching this stuff about gender or id politics, it's not a living meaningful kind of faith. It's just an orthodoxy that you do to be right with - well, not God, but whatever. It's not engaged with in a meaningful way by the believer.

Of course there are many people who do engage, but the many who don't are difficult to deal with because they are only interested in following the forms, not asking what the internal meaning is.

MangyInseam · 24/03/2022 01:39

@MoonOnASpoon

Great post Nonny. A detransitioner on Twitter recently talked about being drawn to being trans as a way to assuage the guilt of being white.

Re colonialism, slavery etc. - it should be possible to both understand that humans of all ethnicities and colours have done (and still do) these things, and to acknowledge that right now in history, there’s a big legacy of white European colonialism that needs to be addressed and accounted for - without that having to descend into goodies and baddies and tiresome self-flagellation.

What I find really interesting is that when you look at this happening, the priority for the “privileged” white or western person is to scramble (or be pushed by bullying or ostracism) up the greasy pole to identify out of white western privilege or grab onto something, anything, that allows you not to be at the bottom and hated. That’s understandable especially in the young, but it’s ultimately basically selfish and privileged behaviour in itself.

You don’t have to identify out of privilege. It would be better to say yes here I am, white, western middle class and undoubtedly privileged. I have to live with that, and do my best to raise others up (e.g. by donating to causes if I can, by thinking about who I employ, publish or promote if I have those powers, by trying to understand and avoid prejudice even if I sometimes fail, by political campaigning for equality). To accept the guilt or discomfort because it’s not actually as bad as what millions of less privileged people endure, and do your best.

Or we could just leave this talk of privilege altogether. It's too blunt to be meaningful as a theoretical tool, and perhaps more importantly, it doesn't lead to any kind of actual concrete political program that makes any difference to actual people.
NonnyMouse1337 · 24/03/2022 06:52

It would be better to say yes here I am, white, western middle class and undoubtedly privileged. I have to live with that.... To accept the guilt or discomfort...

But that's the kind of approach that breeds the sort of neuroticism that leads people to chase these weird identities.
Why feel guilt and discomfort? What good is that going to do other than affect your mental health? Why should such negative, anxiety provoking feelings be the motivation for being a good person?

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