Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 4

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

Thread three, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3

Abbreviations:
BC = Ben Cooper QC, counsel for
MF = Maya Forstater - Claimant
AP = Anya Palmer, assisting BC
OD = Olivia Dobbie, counsel for the respondents
EJ = Employment judge, leading the panel
Panel = any one of the 3 members

CGDE (CGD Europe) – Respondent 1

CGD = Centre for Global Development – Respondent 2

LE = Luke Easley, Vice president for HR and operations at CGD, first witness for CGD
AG = Amanda Glassman, Chief Operating Officer, Senior Fellow and Board Secretary of CGD and a Trustee of CGD(Europe), second witness for CGD
MP = Mark Plant, Chief Operating Officer of CGD Europe, third witness for CGD
MA = Masood Ahmed, President of CGD and Chair of the Board of CGDE – Respondent 3, fourth witness for CGD

EM = Ellen MacKenzie, an off-stage character at CGD, involved in much that went on.

Maya's website has lots of relevant information and is collating the live tweets.
www.hiyamaya.net

twitter.com/tribunaltweets is the account to look at for the live tweets. Plus some live posting and discussion on these threads.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

They will send you pin number and a link to log in to the tribunal.

So they are trying to suggest any association, or even a perceived association, with MF, equals compelled speech? I agree with some here that that seems tenuous.

@nauticant

OD is painting a picture that CGD having to have a continued afflilation with someone holding MF's protected beliefs would present a terrible risk to CGD. I'm just not feeling this.

Particularly after Mark Plant said he had no issue with MF's views.

Lovely, if we have her submissions then I can rest my fingers.

yes @tabbycatstripy especially given that they take no corporate line on other aspects. - (e.g. aid, debt cancellation etc).
It also does not address the point that they did not bother to understand what her belief was OR evidence that their reputation had been compromised by any action of Mayas

I admit, I have no idea what is going to happen!

To be fair to OD, she has to come up with something, she is after all defending the indefensible.

'A culture in which the concept of gender identity was recognised... and given effect...'

'Expected to form groups by gender identity, rather than by sex.'

Yep, that's what she's saying.

But this the defence.

PB found the term 'transvestite' offensive, but not the term 'cross-dresser'.

OD is now using the term cross-dressing herself.

How disingenuous to say that considering P Bunce to be a man equals excluding him from a panel

Is this the article with Pips Bunce declaring the term "transvestite" to be horrible?

www.fnlondon.com/articles/mistranslated-i-split-my-time-as-pippa-and-philip-20171002

Just dipped back in to the proceedings. I’m not a lawyer, but I would be hugely embarrassed to use “some people’s feelings were hurt” as a legal argument. But OD used it. Yes she did.

Where else is it other than in their head? Isn't the whole female brain theory the whole point?

OD: MF saying a feeling in their head = MF saying the same as mental impairment.

OD is misrepresenting in the section, the "offence section". Hmm.

"in their head" = suggests a mental health condition?

Isn't that how Stonewall report on gender? That it's an inner sense? In their head?

OD is GC, I reckon. She's throwing their case.

OD uses infers when she means implies

Or is it one of those words which has changed its meaning nowadays like nonplussed?

To be fair to OD, she has to come up with something, she is after all defending the indefensible.

Yes. Everyone's gushing over Ben Cooper here, but just think how much the facts of the case are on his side.

He may be riding a 70-foot wave like a bronzed Florida beach god, with a nonchalant wave to his adoring fans here, but in that metaphor, OD has to produce a similar display for the judges using a small paddle board in the pool at Weston-super-Mare's Tropicana/Dismaland.

Jesus! "Be nice"?

That's their case? Pips Bunce is to be taken seriously and Maya's not #bekind enough?

I've just been googling for something. It gave me search results that suggests to me that when you put "tranvestite" into the search engine, behind the scenes it also searches for "transgender" as an alternative/substitute.

I'm a bit stunned by the use of Challenor, convicted sadistic paedophile, as an example of "moral panic".

I mean, I agree that OD has a tough gig here, but, did I hear that right?

I've had another look. Yep, it looks like the google search engine views "transvestite" and "transgender" as substitutable terms.

OD has to produce a similar display for the judges using a small paddle board in the pool at Weston-super-Mare's Tropicana/Dismaland.

@vivariumvivariumsvivaria

I'm a bit stunned by the use of Challenor, convicted sadistic paedophile, as an example of "moral panic".

I mean, I agree that OD has a tough gig here, but, did I hear that right?

What??

OD: having gender dysphoria is not something to be cured.

Really?

@tabbycatstripy

So her basic argument is: -

• She was never employed
• If she was employed, her actions were not solely manifestations of a protected belief
• If they were solely manifestations of a protected belief, there is a rights weighing exercise to be done vis-a-vis CGD corporate human rights.

(I think.)

In my completely inexpert opinion, that's a bit of a shit argument.

@nauticant

OD: having gender dysphoria is not something to be cured.

Really?

I think the WHO dropped it as a mental illness.