Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 4

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

Thread three, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4507443-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-3

Abbreviations:
BC = Ben Cooper QC, counsel for
MF = Maya Forstater - Claimant
AP = Anya Palmer, assisting BC
OD = Olivia Dobbie, counsel for the respondents
EJ = Employment judge, leading the panel
Panel = any one of the 3 members

CGDE (CGD Europe) – Respondent 1

CGD = Centre for Global Development – Respondent 2

LE = Luke Easley, Vice president for HR and operations at CGD, first witness for CGD
AG = Amanda Glassman, Chief Operating Officer, Senior Fellow and Board Secretary of CGD and a Trustee of CGD(Europe), second witness for CGD
MP = Mark Plant, Chief Operating Officer of CGD Europe, third witness for CGD
MA = Masood Ahmed, President of CGD and Chair of the Board of CGDE – Respondent 3, fourth witness for CGD

EM = Ellen MacKenzie, an off-stage character at CGD, involved in much that went on.

Maya's website has lots of relevant information and is collating the live tweets.
www.hiyamaya.net

twitter.com/tribunaltweets is the account to look at for the live tweets. Plus some live posting and discussion on these threads.

It is all online. If you want to watch you need to email the tribunal for a log in to [email protected]

They will send you pin number and a link to log in to the tribunal.

What time does it start today?

@ShagMeRiggins

What time does it start today?

Log in for 10:00 start (so, 20-10mins ahead).

Cheers, Hadro. Hoping I can get video to work today instead of just audio. Non-verbal communication is endlessly fascinating for me.

Belated thanks to everyone on these threads, following an employment tribunal is a first for me and I'm so lucky that I have a day off today and will be logging in for 10am. In fact if anyone last week spotted a scruffy woman eating crunchy nut cornflakes before leaping to switch off her camera hi

I had to do a piece of work recently that involved typing what my boss was saying, and it was barely decipherable afterwards so all the hats off to the brilliant people doing that so clearly.

I have a log in.

Wow, wasn't expecting that!

OD quoted Maya as saying 'Under self ID a transwoman is any male who identifies as a woman (a feeling in their head). I am a woman but I don’t have a feeling in my head.” [958] which infers some sort of mental illness'

As others have said upthread, until 2019 the International Classification of Disease, ICD10 included

ICD-10 code F64.9 for Gender identity disorder, unspecified is a medical classification as listed by WHO under the range - Mental, Behavioral and Neurodevelopmental disorders .

So yes, MF may have implied 'some sort of mental illness', which was supported by international medical thinking at the time. How can that be used as a black mark against her?

I don't actual agree that 'a feeling in your head' is a mental illness but, even if that is the inference...

I don’t understand how “having a feeling in your head” in any way implies mental illness.

X post…

MF is not implying mental illness when she says she doesn't think being a woman is a feeling in a man's head. I can feel that someone is watching me. That is not the definition of someone watching me. I can feel that I might have left the iron on. That doesn't switch the iron on.

Feelings do not equal reality, and that is not her saying someone has a mental illness (although she might think that separately and has every right to think it).

CGD could have just said, "We're not renewing your visiting fellowship because of funding difficulties" or some other flim flam.

I wonder why employers do this? On Twitter yesterday someone posted a job rejection letter she'd received in which they said that she was a fantastic candidate but they thought her strong Welsh accent wouldn't go down well in the office environment. It was so outrageous I initially wondered if it was invented. But it seems to be true:

nation.cymru/news/cardiff-woman-who-posted-rejection-letter-blaming-her-strong-welsh-accent-offered-legal-help/

What an insane thing to put in a letter.

But the more pernicious aspect of that argument (for me) is that it inverts everything we know about reality. They feel it, therefore it must be. If you challenge their feelings, you are saying there is a gap between their feelings and reality, which implies mental illness, and you absolutely cannot say someone is mentally ill.

Yes, we can. They might not be (I don't know) but some people do lose their grip on what is real and what isn't. Some people just tell lies. Some people are caught up in an ideology and make faith-based statements that they know are not true. Some people like to play with words.

But we can actually say someone might be mentally ill if they can't see what is real and what isn't.

Oooh, this is exciting!

Its such a weird point isn't it? Is she getting at that gender is in the soul, or spleen or chakra rather than the head? Aren't we just heads with a life support system?

Requested a log in for first time yesterday, really chuffed to find one in my inbox this morning.
Go BC! All power to you, Maya.

@similarminimer

Its such a weird point isn't it? Is she getting at that gender is in the soul, or spleen or chakra rather than the head? Aren't we just heads with a life support system?

No idea. It's something other than a 'feeling' or a thought apparently. We call it 'identity' but don't ask what it means - that's offensive.

But the more pernicious aspect of that argument (for me) is that it inverts everything we know about reality. They feel it, therefore it must be. If you challenge their feelings, you are saying there is a gap between their feelings and reality, which implies mental illness, and you absolutely cannot say someone is mentally ill.

It is weird, but faced with having to defend the indefensible, what are you going to do? Who knows if OD even believes this stuff? She's playing a game of cards where she's been dealt a hand of twos and threes.

To me the real killer of the "feelings in your head" are real argument is what happens when they differ. - If my internal feeling is that you can't be a woman because gender is imposed externally - why is this less "real" than your feeling that your gender is innate?

@drwitch

To me the real killer of the "feelings in your head" are real argument is what happens when they differ. - If my internal feeling is that you can't be a woman because gender is imposed externally - why is this less "real" than your feeling that your gender is innate?

Well, quite.

Are we all waiting for the conference host to join?

Yes.

Am I allowed to do sketches like a courtroom artist? That doesn't count as recording, does it?

The 'feeling in your head' is just the same point as 'gender identity is what's in your head, sex is what's between your legs'. It might not be what cgd believe (they don't seem to know what they believe) but it's a standard simplification of the gender identity belief, as shown on various unicorn or gingerbread cartoons that are used in training/education.

If 'identifying as' isn't a feeling in your head what is it?

I emailed at 9.59 and had login details by 10.01

'If 'identifying as' isn't a feeling in your head what is it?'

They have no definition. It's just about trying to make it sound less subjective.