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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hospital told police patient not raped because attacker transgender

926 replies

Snoodsy · 18/03/2022 02:06

A hospital told the police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was trans, the House of Lords has heard.

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”.

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, who raised the issue during a debate on single-sex wards, continued: “They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers.

“None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

OP posts:
unwashedanddazed · 19/03/2022 18:24

I was trying to remember Gilly, but couldn't remember her name or find where it had been discussed. God, I hope she feels vindicated now that we all know that no hospital can be trusted to tell you the truth in this situation. Very glad she is getting support from other women on Twitter.

Nomoreusernames1244 · 19/03/2022 18:24

To think hospital took a year to admit it! Where were the police cctv is quick enough to view! I hope this poor lady sues the hospital

Presumably cctv is only “quick enough to view” when the owner of the cctv footage is cooperative.

If the nhs refused, possibly citing patient confidentiality, it would have taken court orders to get it released, and a judge would need enough doubt that a male was present to override that patient confidentiality.

Sorry law is not my area of expertise, but the police can’t always bulldoze in and do what they want, they must have a legal justification.

Clymene · 19/03/2022 18:29

I wonder his many more women have been lied to and gaslit?

OldCrone · 19/03/2022 18:29

@KittenKong

Yea that’s the case. Gilly felt hoodwinked and coerced into ‘believing what the party told her’ and said she was mistaken and apologised.

God that must have tasted like ashes when she realised that no, she was right and the hospital was lying.

Has this been mentioned again in the House of Lords? Is Baroness NIcholson aware that this anecdote was actually untrue? Baroness Brinton used this anecdote to support her objection to Baroness Nicholson's amendment:

The problem is that these two amendments feed into the conspiracy movement against trans people and prey on vulnerable women such as this who believe that there is a problem. The fear inculcated by the gender-critical movement means that she felt entitled to aggressively call out a complete stranger minding her own business in her own hospital bed, in case she was a trans woman. Yet the reality is that there is absolutely no evidence whatever of trans people causing problems on single-sex wards.

KittenKong · 19/03/2022 18:29

@ScrollingLeaves

I am muddled here. Please would someone explain. Was Gilly not muddled? How do we know? Also in the Hansard, Lady Britton says that in the case Baroness Nicholson brought up ( this thread) the rapist was ‘a man not a transwoman’ What is that about? - as wasn’t the fact that the hospital had said there had been no men on the ward, down to the man having been classed as a woman?
Gully was adamant at the time that there was a male bodied person in her (woman’s ward).

When she raised her concern with staff she was told she was wrong and was swiftly discharged (even though she was still in pain and scared).

She later recanted (saying she was 100% wrong - so I can only assume the hospital had reaffirmed that this was NOT the case) and went off twitter.

She is now back saying that no, she is still convinced that her initial suspicions were right.

Sounds like the hospital convinced her that she was wrong - but maybe this case showed her that the lie and lie again, and her gut was correct.

Artichokeleaves · 19/03/2022 18:33

@ScrollingLeaves

From the Brighton and Hove Hispital trust mentioned and linked earlier:

“However, it is not possible to guarantee to any patient that they will only be treated by a clinician assigned to a specific gender at birth and, as an organisation that prides itself on our commitment to diversity and inclusion, nor would we wish to do so.”

What can anyone do when a hospital uses this sort of ridiculous language which has no basis in reality?

No one is assigned to anything at birth.

At birth no one is a gender, they are a sex

Inclusion of a man ( trans woman) in health care settings where a woman has to be naked means the EXCLUSION of any traumatised woman or woman of certain religions.

Quoting this whole bit from Brighton and Hove as it bears repeating.

as an organisation that prides itself on our commitment to diversity and inclusion

But only to male people.

Diversity, inclusion, access, duty of care and basic ability to receive medical care? They apparently pride themselves on not giving a toss about any of that for females with needs incompatible with prioritising a small group of males.

That is exclusion not inclusion. It is failure of diversity and active discrimination against women. It is absolutely nothing that anyone who knows the first bloody thing about inclusion should be proud of.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 19/03/2022 18:41

Gilly, I believe you. Shame on them.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/03/2022 18:49

@KittenKong thank you for explaining.

And why did Lady Britton say the rapist Baroness Nicholson in the case mentioned was a man not a transwoman?

KittenKong · 19/03/2022 19:12

Because (if this was the same case) Gilly said that she was mistaken the next day.

She now says that no, she wasn’t mistaken but was told and told and told by the hospital. So she is going back to her first instinct on this.

OldCrone · 19/03/2022 19:45

[quote ScrollingLeaves]@KittenKong thank you for explaining.

And why did Lady Britton say the rapist Baroness Nicholson in the case mentioned was a man not a transwoman?[/quote]
Because transwomen are all sweet and lovely and would never rape anyone with their lady penis.

When one does, it turns out that it wasn't a transwoman after all, it was a man pretending to be a transwoman. See also the case of Karen White.

What people like Baroness Brinton never explain is what exactly is the difference between a transwoman and a man pretending to be a transwoman. Because under self-ID, a man who says he is a transwoman is a transwoman, so there can be no such thing as a man pretending to be a transwoman.

They also never explain what is the difference between a transwoman and a man.

ScrollingLeaves · 19/03/2022 19:59

@KittenKong
I have worked it out now.
My confusion has come from not realising there were 2 separate House of Lords discussions.

In one 9th February Baroness Brinton mentioned Gilly ; and also dismissed cases of rape in hospital and care settings reported by Baroness Nicholson as having been committed by “men not trans women”.

hansard.parliament.uklords/2022-02-09/debates/25504E94-4F01-4282-8EC9-857BE6D94ECC/HealthAndCareBill#contribution-E1DC1451-FBD6-4D9A-A83E-DEAE2BAFBE61

In the other, last Wednesday 16 March, Baroness Nicholson mentioned this case - - -which the thread is about - the woman raped in the hospital, but the hospital then denying there had been a man in the ward to the police.

hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2022-03-16/debates/84C9B6AA-0214-4CEF-A41D-302373BDC190/HealthAndCareBill#contribution-0E3BB87F-8B92-477C-B9BF-6672F71C385D

  1. Here is what Baroness Brinton said in February about the case which may relate to Gilly; and in which also touched on Baroness Nicholson having mentioned cases where, Baroness Brinton said, men not trans women were the perpetrators:

“My Lords, I will speak against Amendments 297F and 297G, spoken to just now by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson. One incident last week explains why they are dangerous and unnecessary. A woman, whom I will not name, was in hospital said the following on Twitter:

“This is incredibly hard to say, and I couldn’t feel more foolish, embarrassed, awkward and dumbfounded as I do now, but it’s been confirmed that the person I believed to be male on the hospital all female bay I was on, was … in fact, a female. This has been 100% verified … I have no words other than how on earth did I mistake a woman for a man? Delicately and with respect I say she was a very emasculated woman and I’m just totally stunned right now at the mistake, my mistake… and am … mortified that I took to Twitter utterly convinced that the woman who looked and sounded like a male, turns out to be quite genuinely a female. I apologise for causing a storm and will take some time off here while I let it sink in. I cannot understand how I got it so wrong … I feel a complete idiot.”

The problem is that these two amendments feed into the conspiracy movement against trans people and prey on vulnerable women such as this who believe that there is a problem. The fear inculcated by the gender-critical movement means that she felt entitled to aggressively call out a complete stranger minding her own business in her own hospital bed, in case she was a trans woman. Yet the reality is that there is absolutely no evidence whatever of trans people causing problems on single-sex wards. All the examples of assault given by the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson, were by men, not trans women.”

  1. Here is what Baroness Nicholson said last Wednesday 18 March about the woman this thread is about:

“However, a rather wonderful lady—I cannot say who she is—was raped in hospital by a man about a year ago. There is only one definition of rape in Britain and that is male on female; you cannot rape if you do not have the structure of a male. She was raped and she naturally reported it to the police. The police spoke to the hospital, which informed them that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened. They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers. None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened. It is on record—I know where the case happened, who the police are and where the hospital is. I know everything about it because she gave me the full case to make sure I knew that what she was saying was true.
During that year she has almost come to the edge of a nervous breakdown, because being disbelieved about being raped in hospital has been such an appalling shock. The hospital, with all its CCTV, has had to admit that the rape happened and that it was committed by a man. The police have therefore changed their tune and become enormously supportive and helpful, and the case is going ahead. However, this has arisen directly from annexe B. The result of annexe B is that hospital trusts inform ward sisters and nurses that if there is a male, as a trans person, in a female ward, and a female patient or anyone complains, they must be told that it is not true—there is no male there. I refer there to the duty of candour in the National Health Service. I think it is completely wrong that the National Health Service should be instructing or allowing staff to mislead patients—to tell a straightforward lie. It is not acceptable. The National Health Service is admired globally and the duty of candour makes it imperative that it should be frank, open and honest with the patients, yet trust after trust has informed its staff that they must say the opposite of the truth when this situation arises. The impact on my new friend is appalling. I beg to move.”

Shortpoet · 19/03/2022 21:25

I’m going to go back and read the full thread later but here is my letter to my male Labour MP. I’ll post any response in due course.

——-
A woman was raped on an NHS hospital ward and the hospital then lied to the police saying that there was not a man on the ward so the rape couldn’t have happened. CCTV a year later has shown that the woman’s account was correct and the hospital lied for a year.

What is Labour’s policy on mixed sex wards in the NHS?

What is Labour’s policy on single sex wards in the NHS?

Do you think anyone who says they are a women should be admitted to a female single-sex ward even if they are a fully intact male?

Are you aware that a policy of allowing biological males (however they identify) into female single sex wards puts women at greater risk of rape or sexual assault at a time when they are particularly vulnerable?

Do you think if a women on a ward complains about a biological male being on a female single-sex ward (regardless of how that male identifies) the medical staff should be forced to deny it? (See article below)

Should NHS staff who raise safeguarding concerns be threatened with disciplinary action or even criminal charges (see article about whistleblowers below)

Do you think it is appropriate for a hospital to lie and cover up a rape on their wards rather than investigating in order to protect a rapist’s feelings?

How would Labour support women in preventing anything like this happening again?

References:

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/hospital-dismissed-claim-of-rape-by-trans-attacker-bssxvbqch

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/10/05/nhs-gaslighting-patients-trans-women-female-only-wards-nurse/

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/08/02/safety-fears-patients-nhs-allows-trans-sex-offenders-female

TigerMTV · 19/03/2022 22:09

@Shortpoet I would also like Labour & Lib Dem’s response to these important questions.

PermanentTemporary · 20/03/2022 08:31

Note: the statement that rape is male on female is not correct as of course men can be victims of rape. Just saying this as it's one of the things our monitors will point out to 'explain' why single sex spaces aren't needed, immediately after they spend a lot of energy saying transwomen should be in women's spaces without question.

Hasselhoffsheadband · 20/03/2022 14:49

Twitter is an absolute shitshow on this:

It didn't happen

It's made up by a transphobe

Women can rape too

'Believe Women' except if the attacker is trans, then it's just made up.

It's so depressing.

KittenKong · 20/03/2022 14:52

The woman ‘therapist’ who basically said on twitter ‘yes it’s too bad she said she was raped but it’s far worse to mis-gender another patient and say they are all rapists’ (which noone did).

Gobsmacking.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 20/03/2022 14:55

It didn't happen

It's made up by a transphobe

If you look at some of the earlier responses to some posts which have been deleted, you will see that this hypothesis was offered by a particularly persistent poster on this thread too.

Somanysocks · 20/03/2022 14:59

The world has truly gone bonkers

DomesticatedZombie · 20/03/2022 17:09

@Hasselhoffsheadband

Twitter is an absolute shitshow on this:

It didn't happen

It's made up by a transphobe

Women can rape too

'Believe Women' except if the attacker is trans, then it's just made up.

It's so depressing.

That didn't happen. And if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault. And if it was, I didn't mean it. And if I did, you deserved it.
DomesticatedZombie · 20/03/2022 17:11

'believe women, except if a male says they're lying, then don't believe them because a male's word is more reliable than a woman's'

Artichokeleaves · 20/03/2022 18:43

And if I did, you deserved it.

Yes, the victim blaming is never far away.

The quoted tweet earlier from a well known activist demonstrates the rage at a raped woman daring to speak out about it and want action and this being transphobic and harmful towards much more vulnerable people than her, when she presumably should have sucked it up quietly as her due.

That's the attitude. In all it's glory.

WellThatsMeScrewed · 20/03/2022 19:14

@Ereshkigalangcleg

It didn't happen

It's made up by a transphobe

If you look at some of the earlier responses to some posts which have been deleted, you will see that this hypothesis was offered by a particularly persistent poster on this thread too.

Hope these disgusting tweets have been archived.
Worldwide2012 · 20/03/2022 19:17

Baroness Nicholson to be interviewed by Andrew Doyle on GB News shortly, on this subject.

DomesticatedZombie · 20/03/2022 19:18

@Worldwide2012

Baroness Nicholson to be interviewed by Andrew Doyle on GB News shortly, on this subject.
Ooh, brilliant, thanks.
DomesticatedZombie · 20/03/2022 19:21