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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hospital told police patient not raped because attacker transgender

926 replies

Snoodsy · 18/03/2022 02:06

A hospital told the police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was trans, the House of Lords has heard.

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”.

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, who raised the issue during a debate on single-sex wards, continued: “They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers.

“None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

OP posts:
ImJustMadAboutSaffron · 18/03/2022 12:11

My brother is a senior NHS manager and I can't wait to have a discussion with him about this. He will be absolutely furious and very upset. if I know him.

RandomThought96 · 18/03/2022 12:15

Is that not conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?

Nnique · 18/03/2022 12:16

And if the truly powerful people have got it so stitched up that everyone below them in the command is chain too frightened to challenge this and do what’s right then you know what? It’s time to GET RID of the rotten ones at the top.

This has gone FAR ENOUGH. It should NEVER have got this far.

Greenfields124 · 18/03/2022 12:17

This is absolutely horrific.
That poor woman.

Politics4me · 18/03/2022 12:19

Two separate points:

  1. In general, I am very annoyed that Press do not reveal names of, say, NHS staff who are responsible for any of the catastrophes that occur. Let's know the name of doctors and nurses present at these events.
  2. In this case surely whoever told the police there were no men present concealed the perpetrators name and became an "accessory after the fact". A serious crime. and for the NHS Management to conceal the name of all involved put them in collusion with a chain of crimes.
Someone with Law experience will probably come on and tell me where I am wrong.
Unsure33 · 18/03/2022 12:23

its quite simple - if you want to live as a woman then you get rid of your penis.

We dont have them

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 18/03/2022 12:24

I do think the people who denied a man was present are on very shaky ground as they were permitted by law to disclose that individuals trans status for the purposes of investigating a crime.
I am not clear what their defence would be.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/03/2022 12:24

Anyone who chooses to use their male organ to perpetrate an unspeakable crime is - without any question at all - not a TW

But many trans people, backed by Stonewall and now clearly supported by health trusts and the like, demand that whatever they choose to be identified as must be accepted

So isn't it the very definition of transphobia for you to deny their identity?

Snugglepumpkin · 18/03/2022 12:25

@couchparsnip

Hopefully what will come out of this is a change to the ridiculous law which says only males can commit rape. Anyone with a penis can rape.
Anyone who has a penis is a biological male & has no business being put into a space that is meant to be for women.
OldCrone · 18/03/2022 12:26

@Pluvia

Lord Etherton spoke as part of this debate following Baroness Nicholson who brought up the rape case ( and had seen the police report and knew it was true). He is a hugely knowledgeable judge. He used all his legal brilliance to argue that trans people must be protected according to the Equalities Act and annex B -which tells staff to lie to protect the trans person- must be upheld. Keir Starmer would probably do the same.

Then that law needs to be changed. There must be no reason why witnesses to a crime must lie to protect someone on the basis of their self-identity. This may be the case that brings the law under the scrutiny that it desperately needs. We need to repeal the GRA. People can call themselves what they like, dress how they like, but the legal fiction that anyone can change sex has to be quashed. Sex is binary and immutable. If you're born with a penis you're a man and nothing can change that — not surgery, not hormones, not lipstick, not a piece of paper.

The clause about not disclosing whether someone has a GRC (which I think is what is being discussed here) has a specific exemption about disclosure for the purpose of investigating or preventing a crime.

If someone doesn't have a GRC, then there is no law which prevents disclosure that that person identifies as transgender.

Section 22 here.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2004/7

IcakethereforeIam · 18/03/2022 12:27

Let's be 'Mothers'! None of those fuckers would be here without us. Don't make me count to five!

Wrie to your MP, if you email Inc your contact detail, hand delivery a letter to their office, talk to other mums on the school run/at work, does anyone have ideas for a petition that isn't too GC? If so share it. Get signatures on the school run. Local Gov. elections in May, candidates should be announced in April, would standing for LG be possible for some of you? I know nothing of the process but I think hats have to be in the ring by 5th April. Contact the candidates. Speak, if canvassed on your doorstep. Attend events. Make your voice heard.

Sorry, getting a bit carried away. But I fear (know) I'm going to watch this thread slide down the page and nothing will change. We're angry, let's do something useful with it.

I am going to see what I can do.

Unsure33 · 18/03/2022 12:27

@ScrollingLeaves

“Unsure33

can someone please question Starmer about this ? he is supposed to be the legal expert . I want to see him explain this .“

Lord Etherton spoke as part of this debate following Baroness Nicholson who brought up the rape case ( and had seen the police report and knew it was true). He is a hugely knowledgeable judge. He used all his legal brilliance to argue that trans people must be protected according to the Equalities Act and annex B -which tells staff to lie to protect the trans person- must be upheld. Keir Starmer would probably do the same.

technically how can it be a lie ?

If they are saying trans women - ARE women - then it should not be a lie .

it is a massive contradiction - that would be my legal argument

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 18/03/2022 12:28

@RandomThought96

Is that not conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?
Not when your moral compass convinces you that you're on the right side of history and that a woman's trauma is irrelevant.

Yes, this is horribly in line with Lifton's work.

*In the book, Lifton outlines the "Eight Criteria for Thought Reform":

Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.

Mystical Manipulation. The manipulation of experiences that appears spontaneous but is, in fact, planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders to demonstrate divine authority, spiritual advancement, or some exceptional talent or insight that sets the leader and/or group apart from humanity, and that allows a reinterpretation of historical events, scripture, and other experiences. Coincidences and happenstance oddities are interpreted as omens or prophecies.

Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.

Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.

Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or all humanity, is likewise above criticism.

Loading the Language. The group interprets or uses words and phrases in new ways so that often the outside world does not understand. This jargon consists of thought-terminating clichés, which serve to alter members' thought processes to conform to the group's way of thinking.

Doctrine over person. Members' personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.

Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious, and must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also.[3]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thought_Reform_and_the_Psychology_of_Totalism

DomesticatedZombie · 18/03/2022 12:31

@RandomThought96

Is that not conspiracy to pervert the course of justice?
I don't know, but given that the police will probably be quite happy to collude with the NHS in this instance we really are in trouble.
DomesticatedZombie · 18/03/2022 12:32

@IcakethereforeIam

Let's be 'Mothers'! None of those fuckers would be here without us. Don't make me count to five!

Wrie to your MP, if you email Inc your contact detail, hand delivery a letter to their office, talk to other mums on the school run/at work, does anyone have ideas for a petition that isn't too GC? If so share it. Get signatures on the school run. Local Gov. elections in May, candidates should be announced in April, would standing for LG be possible for some of you? I know nothing of the process but I think hats have to be in the ring by 5th April. Contact the candidates. Speak, if canvassed on your doorstep. Attend events. Make your voice heard.

Sorry, getting a bit carried away. But I fear (know) I'm going to watch this thread slide down the page and nothing will change. We're angry, let's do something useful with it.

I am going to see what I can do.

Yes, get active.

The more people that write to express their feelings on the matter the better. It really does have an impact.

www.writetothem.com/

Icenii · 18/03/2022 12:34

@aweegc

I also would support the hospital being sued - ideally on behalf of the victim with her receiving the sum awarded.

The medical staff involved who hampered the police need to all be charged with obstructing justice (or whatever it's called) too. They also need to face disciplinary action for not following "do no harm" while she was in their care.

I get that they may have been "following orders", but if that's not a defence in war, then I don't see how it can be a defence in peace, while actively caring - "caring" - for someone in hospital!

Thanks to the victim if she ever comes across this thread. She's been living an utter dystopian nightmare.

People need to be culpable. Every single person who lied to the police and victim need to be charged. People need to own their choices. We've seen what this toxic culture has done to the met. It needs to be flushed out otherwise more women and girls will suffer.
Rhannion · 18/03/2022 12:34

We all need to use our anger to push back.
I hope that poor woman is getting support and finds the strength to sue.

ElPolloLoco · 18/03/2022 12:38

If someone doesn't have a GRC, then there is no law which prevents disclosure that that person identifies as transgender.

Yes, that is correct but Stonewall have helped hospitals etc to ‘get ahead’ of the law so most policies do not allow any disclosure unless in certain important medical situations. Even if it is blindingly obvious to all, staff are not allowed to admit it.

Also, asking if a person holds a GRC is prohibited under the GRA. Stonewall training obviously has emphasised this and the threat of prosecution to maximum effect.

This leaves the concerning situation that most orgs may err on the side of caution and assume that any male who asks to be placed on a female ward has a GRC and treat them accordingly re the law on disclosure which takes us to where we are today.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/03/2022 12:38

What Baroness Nicholson said in the House of Lords last Wednesday 16 March:

“I thank noble Lords for waiting for this very late debate and assure them that the intensity of feeling about this is not reflected by the numbers in the Chamber tonight. Indeed, we had a debate on this a couple of weeks ago. The debate on this amendment tonight still demands the withdrawal of annexe B, which gives priority to trans people over women. But despite the words “trans people”, we believe that this is a debate about the rights of women to have their dignity, privacy and safety reaffirmed and brought back into the centre because those three things have disappeared. There is a rising tide of misogyny in society today because of social media. The NHS should be behind us in supporting women because of our priority needs in health.

I suggest that trans rights, instead of having priority over women’s rights, which has happened because of annexe B, should be reconciled with but cannot trump the dignity and safety of all patients. No one patient, save for medical reasons, should be prioritised over anyone else. I think that that is one of the most fundamental failings of the 2019 annexe B, which talks quite differently from that. Some 51% of the population is being deprived and the protections that we had took at least 50 years to come through. Indeed, I suggest that the rights of women are a priori a touchstone for any civilised society. We have got it wrong. We have somehow changed course.

I suggest that Parliament sets the law and creates the common position for society on any aspect of life. Indeed, we are omnipotent and omnicompetent—not necessarily this Chamber, but the other Chamber. Yet self-ID, which is at the heart of annexe B, has deliberately been pushed through, almost surreptitiously, without debate in either Chamber. I think that that is scandalous and I am a parliamentarian of many years’ standing in different Parliaments. For me, the heart of this debate is that Parliament has been ignored and bypassed and surreptitiously something far-reaching has been brought in that affects all families, all faiths, all identities and all levels of society. In place of sex-based rights, we are giving priority rights to one special section of society.

I have every respect for that section of society. Indeed, I must have been one of earliest Members of Parliament to tackle transgenderism in my constituency. One of the most delightful people came to see me. I knew the parents well—ancient parents—and I knew the families, I knew the village and I knew the farms. This person came in because she was in a dreadful state. She had become fully altered, both physically and through drugs. Because she had been away doing that for some time—it had taken at least a year and she had gone abroad—when she came back her job had disappeared. When she reapplied, she was placed at a much lower level, which meant less status, less salary, fewer holidays and more misery, as it were, because she felt thoroughly demeaned. She was, in fact, a member of the police and it was not easy at that moment to persuade the police that this was a fully acceptable thing to have done. I think that, in that sense, I have won my colours on transgenderism. It was not easy, but I managed it. It was not easy socially for her and I helped on that as well.

None the less, we are in a different situation today, whereby my gender—my sex—has been made less dignified in hospital by a backdoor attempt. Our amendment seeks to reverse this and to include the very limited opt-outs in paragraphs 26 to 28 of Schedule 3 to the Equality Act 2010 to protect single-sex spaces in hospitals. On the filleting of the relevant schedule, which has been placed in annexe B to justify this elite position of one small branch of society, I suggest to the Minister that I have not seen that filleting of legislation anywhere before in Britain. I have seen it in new democracies. It is a terrible thing to do, because you are cheating the public. You are saying that this is in fact the law, when it is not. You have filleted it. That is what has happened with annexe B. I am really shocked by that as a parliamentarian, irrespective of the subject. That is fact; it is a very wrong thing to have done.

I am not at all happy that the current review fulfils best practice either. Having raised this for two or three years with Ministers and having received very little response, I have been informed twice now that there is a review. Indeed, I think that there are two reviews going on, if not three. However, I suggest that the one I believe the Minister is in charge of, to which he referred, is again in breach of the Government’s own regulations on how a review is conducted. Those regulations, which are quite old, are rather good. They are very clear, and they are very simple. They say that you must not have people who have skin in the game running a review, yet that is exactly what has happened.

In the Daily Telegraph today, a whole batch of rather wonderful women who do not sit in this House, alas, but run various women’s organisations and are medical have declared correctly that they have not been invited to give evidence. In other words, this review has been done without input from the very people who know more about it. I offered to give evidence myself, but I was not wanted. That is a different matter; I am not medical, so that may be perfectly fair. But these women are very special indeed and they have not been consulted. This means that women, generally speaking, have been left out of the review.

Worse than that, even, is that the people running the review, who I know—they are fantastic people such as the chief of nurses, the LGBTQ adviser, and so on—are wonderful, very interesting and hugely knowledgeable people, have more than skin in the game: they are the game. I believe it is not right, therefore, that a review that matters so much to 51% of the population and to their families should be conducted in this way. So I am rather unhappy about the review, too. It is being rushed through in parallel with this Bill. I suggest that it does not meet the Government’s own guidelines on consultations on reviews. There is no impartiality and the review team has tremendous interests—that is all too easy, but it does not give the right result.

I remember, again as a Member of Parliament, a massive review being conducted by the European Union into farming. My constituency had many farmers, and they came to see me because they were worried about what might come out of it. I found out from our own files here in London who was on the consultation—and, of course, there was not a single farmer. This is rather the same thing, I would suggest.

Of course, a number of colleagues in this House take their briefings from a lobby group called Stonewall. Stonewall has declared in its briefing for responses to this debate that any comments from me and others—the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, for example—should be responded to by saying, “Blah, blah, blah”. I suggest that this is infinitely too serious for such a response.

Finally, I draw to the House’s attention the fact that I have been requested on a number of occasions by the Minister and others to give examples of what I am talking about. This is not at all easy, because all the examples given to me have been given in confidence. Whereas I know who they are—some are medical professionals and some have already had their jobs threatened—I can see why they do not want to be known.
1.15am
However, a rather wonderful lady—I cannot say who she is—was raped in hospital by a man about a year ago. There is only one definition of rape in Britain and that is male on female; you cannot rape if you do not have the structure of a male. She was raped and she naturally reported it to the police. The police spoke to the hospital, which informed them that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened. They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers. None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened. It is on record—I know where the case happened, who the police are and where the hospital is. I know everything about it because she gave me the full case to make sure I knew that what she was saying was true.
During that year she has almost come to the edge of a nervous breakdown, because being disbelieved about being raped in hospital has been such an appalling shock. The hospital, with all its CCTV, has had to admit that the rape happened and that it was committed by a man. The police have therefore changed their tune and become enormously supportive and helpful, and the case is going ahead. However, this has arisen directly from annexe B. The result of annexe B is that hospital trusts inform ward sisters and nurses that if there is a male, as a trans person, in a female ward, and a female patient or anyone complains, they must be told that it is not true—there is no male there. I refer there to the duty of candour in the National Health Service. I think it is completely wrong that the National Health Service should be instructing or allowing staff to mislead patients—to tell a straightforward lie. It is not acceptable. The National Health Service is admired globally and the duty of candour makes it imperative that it should be frank, open and honest with the patients, yet trust after trust has informed its staff that they must say the opposite of the truth when this situation arises. The impact on my new friend is appalling. I beg to move.”

PastMyBestBeforeDate · 18/03/2022 12:42

WTAF? This poor woman.
Given the Police have probably been Stonewalled, why didn't the conversation go
Police: A cis woman says she was raped on X ward
NHS: Oh that can't be true, we only have women on this ward:
Police: Women or cis women? Could any of your women patients have a penis?
Both sides assuming women don't have penises seems exclusionary. Pesky old reality colouring their assumptions.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/03/2022 12:43

What Lord Etherton said. opposing the bill to amend annexe B in the House of Lords debate last Wednesday 16 March:
My Lords, I rise to oppose this amendment despite the eloquence of the noble Baroness, Lady Nicholson of Winterbourne. It is an important starting point, and it is clear from what the noble Baroness said and the terms of the amendment that it is not intended to change the Equality Act. It appears to be a comment on how that Act is applied in relation to this guidance, so the question is whether annexe B to the September 2019 guidance is consistent with the existing law. I say that it is entirely appropriate and consistent with the anti-discrimination law in the Equality Act.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic. The Act defines that protected characteristic in very wide terms. It includes where a person is proposing to undergo, or is undergoing, a process, or part of a process, for the purpose of reassignment by changing physiological or other attributes of sex. This means that a person may have the protected characteristic without having undergone full surgical reassignment, let alone having a gender recognition certificate. It will be sufficient, for example, if they had adopted attributes of a different sex, such as name, dress or hair, in their intended process of transition.

The Equality Act prohibits discrimination or harassment on account of a gender reassignment. Harassment is defined in very wide terms as engaging in

“conduct related to a relevant protected characteristic”

and that conduct has the effect of “violating”, in the case of gender reassignment, the trans person’s dignity or

“creating an intimidating, hostile, degrading, humiliating or offensive environment for”

that person.

Under the Equality Act, a person who provides a service to the public, which would include the National Health Service, must not discriminate against a trans person in the terms on which the service is provided; nor can they subject the trans person to any other detriment or harass them. The service provider must make reasonable adjustments where appropriate.

If matters stopped there, the NHS would be acting unlawfully in failing to allocate accommodation and other facilities to match the gender identity of transsexuals. There are limited exceptions to those requirements and they are contained in Schedule 3 to the Act. Amendment 184ZBA refers itself to paragraphs 26 to 28 of that schedule; in fact, paragraphs 26 and 27 are irrelevant, as they deal with sex discrimination.

Paragraph 28 is relevant. It says, in relation to gender reassignment discrimination, that a public service provider does not contravene the Equality Act only because of anything done in the provision of separate or different services for persons of each sex or

“the provision of a service only to persons of one sex”,

provided each of those cases is

“a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.”

This means that any permitted derogation from the anti-discrimination and anti-harassment provisions governing the NHS in relation to trans people requires a case-by-case appraisal. Any derogation must be for a legitimate aim. It is not a legitimate aim that some people feel uncomfortable sharing accommodation and facilities with trans people of the opposite birth sex. That would make a nonsense of having the statutory protected characteristic in the first place. Crucially, any derogation must also be proportionate, which means the least discriminatory in all the circumstances.

In light of this legal framework, I can see nothing at all wrong with the 2019 NHS guidance. It correctly identifies trans people who have the protected characteristic under the Equality Act. The guidance says that trans people should be accommodated according to their gender presentation. It recognises that reasonable adjustments can often be made to ensure the dignity of trans people, such as by giving privacy by the use of curtains or accommodation in a single side room adjacent to the gender-appropriate ward, and that a trans person may be placed in an otherwise opposite-gender ward if—but only if—that is proportionate to achieving a legitimate aim. In that context, the guidance refers to a safe nursing environment, but it would also extend to safeguarding requirements, where relevant. The guidance contains similar provisions for children and young people.

All in all, this is entirely consistent with the statutory framework. In my view, this amendment is fundamentally misconceived.”

theDudesmummy · 18/03/2022 12:46

The info I have managed to find so far does not seem to specify it was a psychiatric hospital, I must say, I just made that assumption upthread because that is my experience (as a professional involved in cases of such assaults, not as a survivor, I must add).

Nnique · 18/03/2022 12:46

There’s no ‘probably’ about it...

The police and other institutions of power are 100% knowledgeable and understanding of this, they understand perfectly well what they’re doing. They know that a penis person is a penis person.

This is the situation: It’s not coming someday, it’s not going to happen, it’s not something hypothetical that might one day go badly wrong.

This is absolutely, 100% being driven, specifically, to this direct end, without question. It is no longer a matter of ohhh, they might not understand, blah blah blah.

THEY KNOW FULL WELL.

NotMeekNotObedient · 18/03/2022 12:47

This is terrible, the way this poor woman has been treated is unbelievable.

Slothtoes · 18/03/2022 12:47

This is just so awful. Not being safe from rape in hospital is bad enough, but then being denied justice institutionally is the stuff of nightmares.