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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hospital told police patient not raped because attacker transgender

926 replies

Snoodsy · 18/03/2022 02:06

A hospital told the police that a patient could not have been raped because her alleged attacker was trans, the House of Lords has heard.

The attack took place a year ago and the woman reported it but when officers contacted the hospital, which has not been named, they were told “that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened”.

Baroness Nicholson of Winterbourne, who raised the issue during a debate on single-sex wards, continued: “They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers.

“None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened.

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220317203204/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/03/17/hospital-told-police-patient-not-raped-alleged-attacker-transgender/

OP posts:
allmywhat · 18/03/2022 12:49

@ChazsBrilliantAttitude

I do think the people who denied a man was present are on very shaky ground as they were permitted by law to disclose that individuals trans status for the purposes of investigating a crime. I am not clear what their defence would be.
Stonewall has declared in its briefing for responses to this debate that any comments from me and others—the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, for example—should be responded to by saying, “Blah, blah, blah”. Shock

Shame no one was actually stupid enough to do this (I'm assuming); the news coverage would have been helpful. Was Ruth Hunt in there? Hope she was cringing from 100 different kinds of shame.

allmywhat · 18/03/2022 12:50

sorry, accidental quote there! I was wondering what kind of liability a training provider who purposely misleads NHS staff about the law might have in a case like that.

ScrollingLeaves · 18/03/2022 12:51

NB Lord Etherton points out that for a man to be treated as a woman (including, as we have seen on this thread, being allowed on a women’s ward)
It will be sufficient, for example, if they had adopted attributes of a different sex, such as name, dress or hair, in their intended process of transition

What has it come to that attributes of a different sex such as hair style. dress or hair legally trump and cancel the actual attributes pertaining to sex?

littlbrowndog · 18/03/2022 12:51

The baroness 👏👏

DameHelena · 18/03/2022 12:52

@Politics4me

Two separate points:
  1. In general, I am very annoyed that Press do not reveal names of, say, NHS staff who are responsible for any of the catastrophes that occur. Let's know the name of doctors and nurses present at these events.
  2. In this case surely whoever told the police there were no men present concealed the perpetrators name and became an "accessory after the fact". A serious crime. and for the NHS Management to conceal the name of all involved put them in collusion with a chain of crimes.
Someone with Law experience will probably come on and tell me where I am wrong.
I am also very interested in the detail of whether/how the actions of the hospital constitute criminality.
IcakethereforeIam · 18/03/2022 12:52

It's now 2nd on trending.

littlbrowndog · 18/03/2022 12:52

Who and why is stonewall briefing?

And womens groups ignored ☹️

littlbrowndog · 18/03/2022 12:53

Blah blah

Wtaf are stonewall doing.

They are a fucking charity

gunterlunch · 18/03/2022 12:55

Here's the thing about Stonewall - they charge fees to provide 'advice' to organisations on how to position themselves vis a vis trans issues - and part of this fee underwrites this advice from a legal perspective, thus protecting the organisation against being sued for following Stonewall's position.

I just hope the NHS gets sued and that, as a consequence, Stonewall gets taken to the cleaners. You just have to believe that Stonewall have been hijacked by hard-core male sex offenders, because they are so rabid in their insistence that all a man needs to do to access a woman-only space (such as a changing room) is to declare that they are a woman.

Nnique · 18/03/2022 12:55

Being a charity means absolutely fuck all when it comes to ethics and morality - it’s purely a financial status.

We need to stop looking at charities as moral arbiters. They are not.

Nnique · 18/03/2022 12:57

(See also NSPCC, OXFAM, Amnesty International and others)

Longcovid21 · 18/03/2022 12:58

I'm choking on my toast at this stupidity.

Purpletomato · 18/03/2022 13:01

What's the chances that it was the Met again?

SemperIdem · 18/03/2022 13:02

This is despicable. That poor woman.

Nnique · 18/03/2022 13:02

It is far worse than stupidity. It is evil, pure and simple.

Evil flourishes when ‘good’ men and women do nothing. Or when they say nothing when evil is being carried out, glossed over, dismissed and even celebrated (by some).

MrsOvertonsWindow · 18/03/2022 13:04

A Stonewall briefing says that the response to people discussing rape and sexual assault of women and girls should be“Blah, blah, blah” ???

And they really expect us to believe that they're a decent organisation? Remember, this is the group that are in most of our schools teaching these values to children.

littlbrowndog · 18/03/2022 13:07

@MrsOvertonsWindow

A Stonewall briefing says that the response to people discussing rape and sexual assault of women and girls should be“Blah, blah, blah” ???

And they really expect us to believe that they're a decent organisation? Remember, this is the group that are in most of our schools teaching these values to children.

Yep
ScrollingLeaves · 18/03/2022 13:09

The following is from Sex Matters explaining how in practice the principles for same sex provision are being contradicted by those set out for the protection of trans people in Annexe B.

sex-matters.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Reviewing-Annex-B.pdf

“The NHS England document: Delivering same-sex accommodation1 states:
• All providers of NHS-funded care are expected to prioritise the safety, privacy and
dignity of all patients.
• Providers of NHS-funded care are expected to have a zero-tolerance approach to mixed-sex accommodation, except where it is in the overall best interest of all patients affected.
• Patients should not normally have to share sleeping accommodation with members of the opposite sex.
• Patients should not have to share toilet or bathroom facilities with members of the opposite sex.
• Patients should not have to walk through an area occupied by patients of the opposite sex to reach toilets or bathrooms; this excludes corridors.
• Women-only day rooms should be provided in mental health inpatient units.
• Patient choice for mixing must be considered and may be justified. In all cases,
privacy and dignity should be assured for all patients.
• There are no exemptions from the need to provide high standards of privacy and
dignity at all times.
1 www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2021/05/NEW- Deliveringsamesexaccommodationsep2019.pdf
September 2021 page 3

In particular in Annex A it states that breaches of the single-sex commitment should almost never happen in inpatient wards, mental health inpatient wards and women- only areas in mental health wards, and in situations where patients’ modesty is compromised such as when wearing hospital gowns or nightwear.

Annex B: Delivering same-sex accommodation for trans people and gender variant children is inconsistent with this and does not consider the privacy and dignity of all patients. It results in:
• patients having to share sleeping accommodation, toilet and bathroom facilities with members of the opposite sex
• breaches (mixed-sex situations) not being recorded
• healthcare providers facing potential financial penalties if they place patients in
same-sex accommodation if it differs from their self-identified gender.
• healthcare staff being pushed to maintain a fiction with patients (“There is a man in the next bed!”; “No, madam, that is a woman.”)
• risk assessment being undermined by preventing staff from recording patients’ sex (since to do so would trigger a report).
Principles for revising Annex B
Revision of Annex B should be based on agreed high-level principles. Proposed are:

  1. Annex B should be consistent with the rest of the policy – in language, meaning and outcomes.
  2. It should be clear to staff and patients what to expect and what situations they are being put in when they are told they are in a same-sex or mixed-sex setting.
  3. The policy should prioritise the safety, privacy and dignity of all patients.
  4. The policy should not force staff to misrecord a patient’s sex on medical records, risk assessments or administrative records.
  5. The policy should consider the needs, privacy and dignity of trans patients, recognising that there are difficult situations, and decisions need to be made flexibly.
  6. The policy should generate data on where trans patients are accommodated, without fining healthcare providers for complying with same-sex accommodation.”
TheRealBoswell · 18/03/2022 13:10

@loislovesstewie

Sorry to keep harping on; but it has occurred to me that if we now have 100million gender identities (exaggeration my me, I know) then perhaps we need a new definition of rape. I mean how long before a person says they are some other gender and couldn't possibly have done it?
Quite right. There should be no loopholes when it comes to rape. I cannot believe the hospital said there was no “male” present. Why gaslight the victim? Why could the hospital trust not have just said a biologically intact trans-woman was present? Or is that somehow going to out or or hurt the perpetrator?

It’s another example of why men should never be allowed in womens’ safe spaces. It needs to be clearly stated that biological men or trans-women cannot enter women only spaces, such as changing rooms, swimming pools, hostels, therapy sessions, medical examinations etc. This kind of thing should never have happened, even once is too much. We’ve seen it happen in female only sports, we’re now seeing it in female only wards.

I remember Ian Huntley wanted to transfer to female only prison. I’m not sure if his request was granted. Are those kinds of requests ever granted?

And will this trans-woman, if and when found guilty, be transferred to male or a female prison? What if the rape victim requests a female doctor or wants to seek help from a female rape crisis counselor? Will be seen by trans-woman? When will it stop?

The whole concept of TWAW is intrinsically flawed. Trans-woman are not a biological woman. This is not somehow deadnaming them or committing literal violence. Such terminology are used to shut down debate.

There must be a debate and lines must be drawn.

FunnyTalks · 18/03/2022 13:16

@ScrollingLeaves

What Baroness Nicholson said in the House of Lords last Wednesday 16 March:

“I thank noble Lords for waiting for this very late debate and assure them that the intensity of feeling about this is not reflected by the numbers in the Chamber tonight. Indeed, we had a debate on this a couple of weeks ago. The debate on this amendment tonight still demands the withdrawal of annexe B, which gives priority to trans people over women. But despite the words “trans people”, we believe that this is a debate about the rights of women to have their dignity, privacy and safety reaffirmed and brought back into the centre because those three things have disappeared. There is a rising tide of misogyny in society today because of social media. The NHS should be behind us in supporting women because of our priority needs in health.

I suggest that trans rights, instead of having priority over women’s rights, which has happened because of annexe B, should be reconciled with but cannot trump the dignity and safety of all patients. No one patient, save for medical reasons, should be prioritised over anyone else. I think that that is one of the most fundamental failings of the 2019 annexe B, which talks quite differently from that. Some 51% of the population is being deprived and the protections that we had took at least 50 years to come through. Indeed, I suggest that the rights of women are a priori a touchstone for any civilised society. We have got it wrong. We have somehow changed course.

I suggest that Parliament sets the law and creates the common position for society on any aspect of life. Indeed, we are omnipotent and omnicompetent—not necessarily this Chamber, but the other Chamber. Yet self-ID, which is at the heart of annexe B, has deliberately been pushed through, almost surreptitiously, without debate in either Chamber. I think that that is scandalous and I am a parliamentarian of many years’ standing in different Parliaments. For me, the heart of this debate is that Parliament has been ignored and bypassed and surreptitiously something far-reaching has been brought in that affects all families, all faiths, all identities and all levels of society. In place of sex-based rights, we are giving priority rights to one special section of society.

I have every respect for that section of society. Indeed, I must have been one of earliest Members of Parliament to tackle transgenderism in my constituency. One of the most delightful people came to see me. I knew the parents well—ancient parents—and I knew the families, I knew the village and I knew the farms. This person came in because she was in a dreadful state. She had become fully altered, both physically and through drugs. Because she had been away doing that for some time—it had taken at least a year and she had gone abroad—when she came back her job had disappeared. When she reapplied, she was placed at a much lower level, which meant less status, less salary, fewer holidays and more misery, as it were, because she felt thoroughly demeaned. She was, in fact, a member of the police and it was not easy at that moment to persuade the police that this was a fully acceptable thing to have done. I think that, in that sense, I have won my colours on transgenderism. It was not easy, but I managed it. It was not easy socially for her and I helped on that as well.

None the less, we are in a different situation today, whereby my gender—my sex—has been made less dignified in hospital by a backdoor attempt. Our amendment seeks to reverse this and to include the very limited opt-outs in paragraphs 26 to 28 of Schedule 3 to the Equality Act 2010 to protect single-sex spaces in hospitals. On the filleting of the relevant schedule, which has been placed in annexe B to justify this elite position of one small branch of society, I suggest to the Minister that I have not seen that filleting of legislation anywhere before in Britain. I have seen it in new democracies. It is a terrible thing to do, because you are cheating the public. You are saying that this is in fact the law, when it is not. You have filleted it. That is what has happened with annexe B. I am really shocked by that as a parliamentarian, irrespective of the subject. That is fact; it is a very wrong thing to have done.

I am not at all happy that the current review fulfils best practice either. Having raised this for two or three years with Ministers and having received very little response, I have been informed twice now that there is a review. Indeed, I think that there are two reviews going on, if not three. However, I suggest that the one I believe the Minister is in charge of, to which he referred, is again in breach of the Government’s own regulations on how a review is conducted. Those regulations, which are quite old, are rather good. They are very clear, and they are very simple. They say that you must not have people who have skin in the game running a review, yet that is exactly what has happened.

In the Daily Telegraph today, a whole batch of rather wonderful women who do not sit in this House, alas, but run various women’s organisations and are medical have declared correctly that they have not been invited to give evidence. In other words, this review has been done without input from the very people who know more about it. I offered to give evidence myself, but I was not wanted. That is a different matter; I am not medical, so that may be perfectly fair. But these women are very special indeed and they have not been consulted. This means that women, generally speaking, have been left out of the review.

Worse than that, even, is that the people running the review, who I know—they are fantastic people such as the chief of nurses, the LGBTQ adviser, and so on—are wonderful, very interesting and hugely knowledgeable people, have more than skin in the game: they are the game. I believe it is not right, therefore, that a review that matters so much to 51% of the population and to their families should be conducted in this way. So I am rather unhappy about the review, too. It is being rushed through in parallel with this Bill. I suggest that it does not meet the Government’s own guidelines on consultations on reviews. There is no impartiality and the review team has tremendous interests—that is all too easy, but it does not give the right result.

I remember, again as a Member of Parliament, a massive review being conducted by the European Union into farming. My constituency had many farmers, and they came to see me because they were worried about what might come out of it. I found out from our own files here in London who was on the consultation—and, of course, there was not a single farmer. This is rather the same thing, I would suggest.

Of course, a number of colleagues in this House take their briefings from a lobby group called Stonewall. Stonewall has declared in its briefing for responses to this debate that any comments from me and others—the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra, for example—should be responded to by saying, “Blah, blah, blah”. I suggest that this is infinitely too serious for such a response.

Finally, I draw to the House’s attention the fact that I have been requested on a number of occasions by the Minister and others to give examples of what I am talking about. This is not at all easy, because all the examples given to me have been given in confidence. Whereas I know who they are—some are medical professionals and some have already had their jobs threatened—I can see why they do not want to be known.
1.15am
However, a rather wonderful lady—I cannot say who she is—was raped in hospital by a man about a year ago. There is only one definition of rape in Britain and that is male on female; you cannot rape if you do not have the structure of a male. She was raped and she naturally reported it to the police. The police spoke to the hospital, which informed them that there was no male in the hospital, therefore the rape could not have happened. They forgot that there was CCTV, nurses and observers. None the less, it has taken nearly a year for the hospital to agree that there was a male on the ward and, yes, this rape happened. It is on record—I know where the case happened, who the police are and where the hospital is. I know everything about it because she gave me the full case to make sure I knew that what she was saying was true.
During that year she has almost come to the edge of a nervous breakdown, because being disbelieved about being raped in hospital has been such an appalling shock. The hospital, with all its CCTV, has had to admit that the rape happened and that it was committed by a man. The police have therefore changed their tune and become enormously supportive and helpful, and the case is going ahead. However, this has arisen directly from annexe B. The result of annexe B is that hospital trusts inform ward sisters and nurses that if there is a male, as a trans person, in a female ward, and a female patient or anyone complains, they must be told that it is not true—there is no male there. I refer there to the duty of candour in the National Health Service. I think it is completely wrong that the National Health Service should be instructing or allowing staff to mislead patients—to tell a straightforward lie. It is not acceptable. The National Health Service is admired globally and the duty of candour makes it imperative that it should be frank, open and honest with the patients, yet trust after trust has informed its staff that they must say the opposite of the truth when this situation arises. The impact on my new friend is appalling. I beg to move.”

scrollingleaves thank you so much for taking the time to type all that! I don't think I realised what a great speaker baroness Nicholson was. Clear, logical, thorough but also so warm. Where would I find the original of this please? I need to share with someone.

I am surprised at how shocked I am at Stonewall's "blah blah blah" comment. I dunno, I thought they tried to conceal their contempt for women I tiny bit but I guess they feel emboldened to let it all hang out.

DysonSphere · 18/03/2022 13:18

Dear God what are things coming too?

Torunette · 18/03/2022 13:18

@nothingcomestonothing

If a doctor or nurse cannot tell the biological difference between a male and female they should have their medical licence revoked. If these “medical professionals” don’t have the first clue on basic biology then they have no place treating patients. Makes me wonder what else they don’t know.

We do know Sad. It's just that official policy tells us that if we admit reality, we are the same as racists and will be subject to disciplinary procedures and potentially reported to the police for hate crimes. I tried to raise the issues with the trans policies in my workplace (NHS hospital), the official response was that the policy had been approved by the LGBT staff network and a local LGBT charity and therefore was fine, and I had to go on the 'diversity' training provided by said charity. This is not an outlier, this is the result of deliberate, publicised, board-approved policies in NHS trusts. Staff who point out the mile-wide safeguarding loopholes are threatened and silenced.

This requires unpicking.

Why does a public institution think it is appropriate to give one of its specific staff networks such authority over a policy that affects members of the general public and its own vulnerable user base, particularly when said institution is funded from general taxation?

Surely, a staff network should only have a say over policies that affect employees, not clients, patients or users?

Again, what is the mechanism by which a local charity has authority over said policy?

Why are they outsourcing policy decisions to staff members?

AlisonDonut · 18/03/2022 13:18

I remember Ian Huntley wanted to transfer to female only prison. I’m not sure if his request was granted. Are those kinds of requests ever granted?

I think this was made up, there was a thread on here about it and there were people saying 'if huntley IDs as a women then she should be blah blah blah'...but the point being that DBS checks only came in because of Huntley and if he changed his name and got out he could apply for another school job, just not tell people his old name. Because there is a massive loophole that relies on people being honest...I know I know I know...

allmywhat · 18/03/2022 13:20

@MrsOvertonsWindow

A Stonewall briefing says that the response to people discussing rape and sexual assault of women and girls should be“Blah, blah, blah” ???

And they really expect us to believe that they're a decent organisation? Remember, this is the group that are in most of our schools teaching these values to children.

And how can anyone see them as credible or competent?

They're briefing members of the House of Lords to say "blah blah blah" in debates. As well as being fucking psychopathic in context of how serious the issues are, this is objectively stupid advice. Any competent staff members they had must have deserted the sinking ship. How can any serious organisation continue to take advice from them?

The "blah blah blah" advice alone should be one of the final nails in Stonewall's coffin.

Nnique · 18/03/2022 13:23

@DysonSphere

Dear God what are things coming too?
They’re not coming to anything. They were like this right from the moment this shit became an actual thing.

It was the only way it could go.

The whole fucking thing needs to be stopped. Now.

This is REAL LIFE. This has already happened, is going on now, and will keep happening over and over to REAL WOMEN AND CHILDREN.