Sports segregation

[Whatiswrongwithmyknee]

I've been reading some confusing articles about transwomen in sports. I don't know if there is an answer to this from gender ideologists, but why do we need sports to be segregated by gender identity given that in your ideology identity bears no relation to your body? Why are you not compaigning for just one mixed category?

Because twaw and women compete in women's sport!

That they will usually win because...testosterone/male puberty, completely beside the point.

I'm not sure what's confusing about the physiological difference male and female puberty bring about?

All the hormones in the world won't undo male puberty and the muscle mass growth/skeletal changes/cardiovascular advantages it confers. The same as giving trans men testosterone won't give them the muscle mass etc. of non-trans men.

Is this a post just looking to be provocative??

We don't need them segregated by gender identity, we need them segregated by sex. One mixed category will drive women out of sport.

@oviraptor21

We don't need them segregated by gender identity, we need them segregated by sex. One mixed category will drive women out of sport.

This!

I don't know what is wrong with your knee.

Do you have a sore knee or do you just identify as someone with a sore knee?

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I've been reading some confusing articles about transwomen in sports. I don't know if there is an answer to this from gender ideologists, but why do we need sports to be segregated by gender identity given that in your ideology identity bears no relation to your body? Why are you not compaigning for just one mixed category?

Yes op, you are right. If they were being logical, it seems they would be saying there is no reason for segregated sports, women and men should compete together in one big group.

Certainly for those who claim there is no male advantage.

Some however claim that the male advantage somehow disappears when people transition. Others seem to argue that transwomen just happen to be a very strong fast sort of woman while transmen are rather slow weak men. And others don't make that sort of argument at all, they say that inclusion is more important, even in elite sport. By which they mean inclusion of the more oppressed identities.

There are far too many of these sorts of threads, looking for traces of logic in TRA thinking and wondering why they can’t explain it.

You’ll never get an answer OP because there isn’t one. They know sport is segregated by sex for very good reasons. The reality is you’ll never get anyone to admit that they’re campaigning for, or should be campaigning for all sports to be mixed sex because the actual reason for campaigning for sports to be segregated by gender identity is mostly for validation, with a smattering of people who love to dominate and just don’t care (think our friendly cyclepath).

But they’ll never openly admit to that.

I get the impression that a lot of trans activists are not very sporty as the one's I have encountered seem to think that the main point of sport is to be affirmative and inclusive.

They don't seem very bothered about other elements of sport like fairness, safety and competition. They also aren't very interested in the idea of inclusiveness when it comes to the females who don't feel safe or able to access a fair playing field when competing against someone who is bigger, stronger and more powerful as a result of much larger amounts of testosterone during puberty.

Isn’t the argument that sports people only won because they are unusual anyway, with some kind of reference to Michael Phelps get inserted? And that we should all compare in different leagues that are somehow sorted by the myriad of differences, rather than the one main difference, sex? Which is lovely, because then in the future, I can compete at the Olympics in the category of fat fifty year old women who haven’t exercised for ten years and actually have a chance in winning. Hire inclusive is that?

Michael Phelps feet, not get

Actually, I’ve just realised it would be the category of fat fifty year olds, and I’d still lose. Oh well.

@Rockhopper81

I'm not sure what's confusing about the physiological difference male and female puberty bring about?

All the hormones in the world won't undo male puberty and the muscle mass growth/skeletal changes/cardiovascular advantages it confers. The same as giving trans men testosterone won't give them the muscle mass etc. of non-trans men.

Is this a post just looking to be provocative??

No, not looking to be provocative. I have been on FWR long enough to realise that the majority feeling is pro-women's rights. I am genuinely looking to understand the arguments trans-activists might be making. I don't think they will be convincing but it is still helpful to know what you are up against (I have kids who I am trying to protect from the damage this ideology is doing - they're sceptics at the moment but the brain washing is clever).

@SageRosemary

I don't know what is wrong with your knee.

Do you have a sore knee or do you just identify as someone with a sore knee?

I can't believe you are mis-paining me. You are literally telling me you don't think my knee should exist.

@Nellodee

Isn’t the argument that sports people only won because they are unusual anyway, with some kind of reference to Michael Phelps get inserted? And that we should all compare in different leagues that are somehow sorted by the myriad of differences, rather than the one main difference, sex? Which is lovely, because then in the future, I can compete at the Olympics in the category of fat fifty year old women who haven’t exercised for ten years and actually have a chance in winning. Hire inclusive is that?

Not sure you'll win as you'll be up against me - bad knee and all! That said, I'm asthmatic. Does that mean I get my own special category?

I am genuinely looking to understand the arguments trans-activists might be making.

It's basically "X is a woman - it's women's sports, therefore X should be in women's sports". Everything else is working backwards to justify that ideological stance.

You could try this new article, reviewed by Helen Joyce as "The most stupid article that has ever been run on anything, ever"

Lia Thomas and the long tradition of 'gender policing' female athletes

For as long as women have excelled at sports in the modern era, their gender and sexuality have faced fierce scrutiny, historians say.

They put Lia Thomas next to Martina Navratilova in the photo heading. (Sorry, don't know who the runner is!) Martina's going to love that.

As with toilets and changing rooms and spas, they could have spent the last few years campaigning for a third space, or - better still - campaigning to make men - males - more open minded and accepting of fellow males in who present and identify in a different way.

But instead they have focussed on a campaign to get access to women's safe spaces, spaces where women get undressed or partly undressed or are naked or sleep. And in sports, get scholarships, prizes and sponsorships too.

Martina's going to love that.

Ah, she's seen it.

The sex-segregation in many sports is because human bodies come in two major variants and out of the two variants the male bodies (having undergone male puberty) have certain built-in advantages which mean that individuals with female bodies are unlikely to medal that often if male-bodied people are allowed to compete in the same events. There are a few (very few) spots where the female body has the advantage, and in those male-bodied people would medal seldom.

That segregation has nothing to do with gender identity, of course.

And the 'rare Michael Phelps talents' argument has the flaw that possessing a male body is not at all rare as about half of all people do possess it.

The main negative consequences of segregating sports on the basis of gender identity is that it will discourage teenage girls (vulva people?) from having the goal of excelling in sports as the dice will then be loaded against them.

As it is good to encourage physical activity in all people, this is not good.

@Whatiswrongwithmyknee

I've been reading some confusing articles about transwomen in sports. I don't know if there is an answer to this from gender ideologists, but why do we need sports to be segregated by gender identity given that in your ideology identity bears no relation to your body? Why are you not compaigning for just one mixed category?

You're asking the wrong people here, because none of us here can interpret gender ideology to find any logic whatsoever.

I think it's that:

A man is anyone who says they're a man, and a woman is anyone who says they're a woman. (I'm nodding to nonbinaries but not going to comment on that because in sport, NB is thus far not acknowledged).

Without men or women, no one can have a "gender identity" at all.

If gender ideologists were to campaign for mixed sex spaces for everyone everywhere it would undermine the very important gender identities of people who feel very strongly that they're men or women. They'd have nothing to compare their identity to and no one else around to validate their very important gender identity.

Keeping male and female categories in all areas of life is important so that people with a gender identity can express their true selves.

And now because of this ridiculous situation whereby sex and gender mean the same thing some governing bodies (England Netball) are allowing boys to play in girls tournaments.

I had great fun watching my 9 year old daughter’s amazing school netball team win every single match in a tournament…until they got to the final, where the team had two huge boys dominating the game. The other team won, not because of their skill but because of their size and likely the ability the boys had from taking part in other sports. Two of the girls were also injured.

Just watched Lia Thomas’s latest swim. Even though she won, you can tell that she hardly used her legs at all compared to the women in the race. When you’re looking for it, it’s so obvious.

I think that this issue is one of those that shows that we've come to the 'end of feminism', in a crucial sense. The whole thrust of feminism, for over a century, has been that women could do what men do. That's been entirely correct, in my view: the strength of humans, relative to other species, is all about humans' mental capacities. Never about their physical capacities. Relative to chimps, horses or even tigers, the difference between men and women is tiny. Humans' strength is in their brains. And there's sod all difference between men and women in that respect - if any at all.

The GC argument is anti-feminist. It wants to assert that women are inherently inferior to men in ways that are still in some way important. It also wants to assert that women are, in various ways, nicer than men, in some crucial respects. This is why GC advocates are fine with any kind of natal woman in a woman's bathroom - because women are unfailingly lovely and fluffy - whereas any self-identifying woman, no matter how small and fragile she is - if she has a penis and testicles, or even once had a penis and testicles, is, ipso facto, a menace to all the women around her.

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

Gah ... of all the things we women have to face, the issue of transwomen is so, so tiny. I really do think we should move on from it. It makes us look silly, tiny and weak that we're so scared of people who were born equipped with penises and testicles. We are better than this ridiculous argument.

Men retain male pattern violence once transitioned.

Sport, meh? I don’t think so. Sport isn’t just for elite athletes, it’s also for normal everyday people. If, as in my experience today, a 9 year old boy injures a girl on a netball court, she chooses not to continue and therefore drops out of sport that won’t just have an impact now - it will be on her future health, confidence and mental well-being.

If a man says he’s a woman and is convicted of rape (laughable that a conviction happens, I know) it will be recorded as a female crime. We won’t be able to name where the violence is coming from. You don’t see a problem with that?

Also scared of people who kill and rape us? How ridiculous we all are.

@GreenUp

I get the impression that a lot of trans activists are not very sporty as the one's I have encountered seem to think that the main point of sport is to be affirmative and inclusive.

They don't seem very bothered about other elements of sport like fairness, safety and competition. They also aren't very interested in the idea of inclusiveness when it comes to the females who don't feel safe or able to access a fair playing field when competing against someone who is bigger, stronger and more powerful as a result of much larger amounts of testosterone during puberty.

That seems to describe a certain number of people, and I would say particularly female activists or supporters, including transmen.

I have wondered if this thinking has maybe been influenced by the way schools and kids tv shows seem to teach kids that inclusion is the most high and holy of all values - more than justice, fairness, or anything else really. Certainly far far about competition. Inclusion, and people's feelings.