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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sports segregation

47 replies

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 16/03/2022 23:58

I've been reading some confusing articles about transwomen in sports. I don't know if there is an answer to this from gender ideologists, but why do we need sports to be segregated by gender identity given that in your ideology identity bears no relation to your body? Why are you not compaigning for just one mixed category?

OP posts:
Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 18/03/2022 00:28

@Ides

I think that this issue is one of those that shows that we've come to the 'end of feminism', in a crucial sense. The whole thrust of feminism, for over a century, has been that women could do what men do. That's been entirely correct, in my view: the strength of humans, relative to other species, is all about humans' mental capacities. Never about their physical capacities. Relative to chimps, horses or even tigers, the difference between men and women is tiny. Humans' strength is in their brains. And there's sod all difference between men and women in that respect - if any at all.

The GC argument is anti-feminist. It wants to assert that women are inherently inferior to men in ways that are still in some way important. It also wants to assert that women are, in various ways, nicer than men, in some crucial respects. This is why GC advocates are fine with any kind of natal woman in a woman's bathroom - because women are unfailingly lovely and fluffy - whereas any self-identifying woman, no matter how small and fragile she is - if she has a penis and testicles, or even once had a penis and testicles, is, ipso facto, a menace to all the women around her.

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

Gah ... of all the things we women have to face, the issue of transwomen is so, so tiny. I really do think we should move on from it. It makes us look silly, tiny and weak that we're so scared of people who were born equipped with penises and testicles. We are better than this ridiculous argument.

What makes you think the GC argument is that women are inferior? Wanting female only spaces is not about women bring inferior.
OP posts:
oviraptor21 · 18/03/2022 00:38

@Ides
Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

I'm one of your so-called tiny percentage of women who are affected by the presence of transwomen in my sport. The transwomen competing are mediocre by male standards but beat the best women by virtue of superior strength and speed.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 18/03/2022 08:36

@oviraptor21

I'm sorry you've been marginalised in sport by males. I think that even if it were a tiny percentage it's still completely unacceptable

I'm interested that the GI folk on these forums who are so keen to leap all over women and tell them how bigoted they are on other threads have chosen not to answer this question. One wonders why not.

OP posts:
Jackjack0962 · 18/03/2022 09:48

@Ides

I think that this issue is one of those that shows that we've come to the 'end of feminism', in a crucial sense. The whole thrust of feminism, for over a century, has been that women could do what men do. That's been entirely correct, in my view: the strength of humans, relative to other species, is all about humans' mental capacities. Never about their physical capacities. Relative to chimps, horses or even tigers, the difference between men and women is tiny. Humans' strength is in their brains. And there's sod all difference between men and women in that respect - if any at all.

The GC argument is anti-feminist. It wants to assert that women are inherently inferior to men in ways that are still in some way important. It also wants to assert that women are, in various ways, nicer than men, in some crucial respects. This is why GC advocates are fine with any kind of natal woman in a woman's bathroom - because women are unfailingly lovely and fluffy - whereas any self-identifying woman, no matter how small and fragile she is - if she has a penis and testicles, or even once had a penis and testicles, is, ipso facto, a menace to all the women around her.

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

Gah ... of all the things we women have to face, the issue of transwomen is so, so tiny. I really do think we should move on from it. It makes us look silly, tiny and weak that we're so scared of people who were born equipped with penises and testicles. We are better than this ridiculous argument.

Hmm where on earth have you got this from @Ides ? What utter nonsense.

OP I think your question is a good one and no TRAs are going to be able to answer it. Ultimately they need the sexes recognised to affirm their ‘feelings’.

I cannot get my head around so many women supporting them and ‘being kind’.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/03/2022 10:57

I can't get my head around the logic that some people can't see the physical difference between male and female bodies so no I can't argue it. It's like trying to argue why water is wet or why bears shit in the woods.

WelcomeMarch · 18/03/2022 11:03

God, how many fingers do you have on each hand, Ides?

WelcomeMarch · 18/03/2022 11:08

Lia Thomas
Laurel Hubbard
Veronica/Rachel Ivy
Lauren Jeska
CeeCee wotsit
Andreya Yeardwood
Hannah Mouncey
Terry wotsit who came second to Andreya Yearwood
Maxine Blethyn

That’s a lot of fingers… and I’m not even that interested in sport.

And that’s because a 15% or more advantage gets mediocre males ahead of elite females quite a bit of the time.

TheWeeDonkey · 18/03/2022 11:11

I mean it's like asking why more males don't give birth? Maybe they're just not trying hard enough.

MoonOnASpoon · 18/03/2022 11:23

It wants to assert that women are inherently inferior to men in ways that are still in some way important.

Yes. It's important in sports, for example. I wouldn't use the very judgmental-sounding word "inferior", but that natural differences in size and strength means it makes sense to have male and female categories. Otherwise, for almost all sports, only males will ever win at any kind of competitive level, and in effect only males need ever bother, so sport will become male-only and like it or not, that does exclude women. If you happen to be a woman who is into sport, would like to compete locally or at a higher level, or would like to make your sporting aptitude into your career and possibly do very well out of it, well that's closed to you. That is not OK.

It also wants to assert that women are, in various ways, nicer than men, in some crucial respects.

Again with the sneery emotive language - if you think it makes women "nicer" that they are far, far, far less likely to be violent than men are, and even more so in the case of sexual violence, while in men it's quite common, well that's your description. In reality it's just statistical fact. As males are on average stronger and have a greater tendency to violence and sexual attack, if females don't have their own spaces for vulnerable situations like getting undressed, sleeping, being ill, refuges etc then they are at significant risk of attack, from murder and rape at one end of the spectrum to groping, harassment and flashing at the other. But it's not just about the attacks in themselves, but being free from the fear and vigilance associated with sharing spaces with males - being able to relax and sleep on a hospital ward for example.

Recognising that is not saying that all males are attackers, and before this madness everyone understood that and I suspect they still do. It's just a cry bullying tactic of the kind familiar to women who've been abused by men. "Waaaah, you're saying I'm a rapist, poor me, you're mean."

Previously, males - the respectful ones - didn't go in females spaces, because they knew they were male and respected that a female space is for females to feel safe from males, because males being around means less safety.

This meant that a man who did try to access a female space was likely to be suspect and could be challenged.

Trans ideology wants to take that whole system away. Without that system, females suffer - sometimes extreme suffering - but males don't. Because of biological differences as above.

DecayedStrumpet · 18/03/2022 11:48

Ides please look up some stats about male and female upper body strength, speed, muscle fibre composition etc. You clearly haven't looked into this in even the shallowest way.

Male and female bodies are very different - and I say this as someone who is seriously into sport and nutrition.
Ignoring the differences means we can't train to maximum capacity; again, 'Invisible Women' style, most training programs are geared towards men.

It is immensely frustrating how hard I have to train just to be able to perform similarly to a male couch potato, but pretending that's not so doesn't do anyone any favours.

Linguini · 18/03/2022 12:18

I find this website really informative. It lays out the stats on high school aged boys versus professional female Olympic champions.

Across pretty much all sports, professional adult women can't beat high school boys who aren't yet even in their prime.

boysvswomen.com/#/

It's not because women are "inferior" Confused on the contrary. Women need their own sports and their own spaces to excel in society.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 18/03/2022 12:26

I doubt @Ides will look but also just in case

Men are stronger than women that doesn’t make women inferior ffs, just different!

And you may not give a toss about sport but you’ve no right to chuck all the women who do under the bus. Their rights are not yours to give away!

Sports segregation
Linguini · 18/03/2022 12:30

If anything, the GC argument could be said to consider males to be "inferior".

The GC lot seem to repeatedly bring up the fact that 98% of all sex crime is committed by men, 80% of all violent crime is committed by men, and 93% of all murders are committed by men.

...And that transwomen retain these male patterns, (seeing as they're male) and some, eg the pattern re sex crime, actually increase for transwomen...

I don't see GC people implying "women are inferior". On the contrary.

nepeta · 18/03/2022 14:33

@Ides

I think that this issue is one of those that shows that we've come to the 'end of feminism', in a crucial sense. The whole thrust of feminism, for over a century, has been that women could do what men do. That's been entirely correct, in my view: the strength of humans, relative to other species, is all about humans' mental capacities. Never about their physical capacities. Relative to chimps, horses or even tigers, the difference between men and women is tiny. Humans' strength is in their brains. And there's sod all difference between men and women in that respect - if any at all.

The GC argument is anti-feminist. It wants to assert that women are inherently inferior to men in ways that are still in some way important. It also wants to assert that women are, in various ways, nicer than men, in some crucial respects. This is why GC advocates are fine with any kind of natal woman in a woman's bathroom - because women are unfailingly lovely and fluffy - whereas any self-identifying woman, no matter how small and fragile she is - if she has a penis and testicles, or even once had a penis and testicles, is, ipso facto, a menace to all the women around her.

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

Gah ... of all the things we women have to face, the issue of transwomen is so, so tiny. I really do think we should move on from it. It makes us look silly, tiny and weak that we're so scared of people who were born equipped with penises and testicles. We are better than this ridiculous argument.

Others have responded to the top three paragraphs in Ides' quote so I want to address the fourth one:

This issue is, unfortunately, not tiny, because it is really not only an issue about trans women:

The new gender ideology aims at erasing our ability to define ourselves as biologically female (because it says that we cannot call ourselves women on the basis of biology), it erases our ability to unite politically to further our shared interests (reproductive rights, safety from sexual violence etc.), and it ultimately would erase our ability to continue the kind of work previous generations of feminists began.

Consider how the globally oppressed sex class 'women' compares to the new identity sub-category 'cisgender women.' The former definition draws our attention to a giant group which is often mistreated. The latter definition (containing the vast majority of the women in the former) suggests that this group is now privileged and favoured.

Consider how the female body is turned into a gender-neutral one: It is now 'bleeders' who have periods, and 'people' who get pregnant and give birth.

In the most extreme form of the gender ideology, there is no female sex, though there still is a male sex which can be called 'men'. The female sex is nameless, even though it is oppression on the basis of that sex which remains a big problem on the global level.

Consider how transitioning from 'women' to 'nonbinary' really means that the person is "not like those other girls" who are expected to be content with regressive female sex norms, but instead is an actual individual human being who should not be treated with sexist expectations and so on. (That is, of course, what feminists fought for, only for all women, not just for a handful.)

Yet many individuals matching that nonbinary description sometimes want to be 'included' in their old group. This is because they, too, may need abortions or defense from sex-based discrimination. But this 'inclusion' requires that the female body must be made gender-neutral. This turns the female body into a gender-neutral 'people-body' which apparently any random person can suddenly possess. It also erases the gender definitions of all women who base them on the sex of their bodies.

Once we get to this point, the meaning of the term 'women' becomes opaque. The alternative definitions I have seen are all deeply sexist or circular or empirically empty. This matters if we wish to fight against sex-based mistreatment, as it turns the group suffering from it into just 'people' and makes it pretty hard to see what something like 'women's rights' might even mean.

So this is not a tiny issue at all. In some ways it is a fundamental challenge to feminism and some parts of it are, in fact, closer to traditional anti-feminist arguments than feminism:

The posthumous transing of many famous female role models from history suggests that no mere woman could have done anything so courageous or important, the assumption that a boy wanting to wear dresses must really be a girl because it is girls who wear dresses, not boys, suggests a direct link between gender ideology beliefs and traditional sex norms and so on.

nepeta · 18/03/2022 15:37

I could have a go with the arguments trans activists have made in press about sports. They vary quite a bit, of course, so it's not possible to state that there is only one general explanation.

The usual argument, as stated by Veronica Ivy, say, is that

  1. Everyone has the right to participate in sports
  2. The definition of women and men, boys and girls, CANNOT and MUST NOT be based on biological sex but only on pure inner identity. This means that trans women are women and trans girls are girls in exactly the same way as women and girls who happen to have female bodies. The latter are also assumed to base their identities on some abstract inner feeling. So the groups are identical in their femaleness.
  3. Given 2. and the existence of female categories in most sports, it must be the case that trans women and trans girls compete in the female categories and trans men and trans boys in the male categories. Anything else would be discrimination against transgender individuals.
4. Fairness towards biological women and girls is not relevant as sports, in general, are not fair. Consider the unusual and rare genetic advantages some athletes have (Michael Phelps is brought in here), He won so much partly because of those unfair advantages. This angle argues that possessing a male body which has gone through male puberty is a rare genetic advantage, even though fifty percent of adult males possess it. The contradiction is solved by stating that as the trans women are, in fact, women, their genetic advantage is rare in that particular group.
  1. Making a trans athlete participate in the category their sex would suggest is viewed as exactly the same as not allowing them to participate in sports at all.

Some others have also argued that there is no fairness problem at all if adult trans women have taken oestrogen for at least twelve months, though several studies clearly demonstrate that the advantage remains, and this also leaves the allowed testosterone levels of trans women very high compared to the average range of female levels of the same hormone.

The problem that follows if we accept the above is that there is then absolutely no reason to separate men's and women's sports. As gender identity is an abstract feeling and not related to the bodies, everyone should just compete together... And let the best man win, I guess.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/03/2022 16:36

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

It's not just about the elite levels though. Do you not understand that it's about girls and women being able to get on with enjoying stuff safely and fairly?

That it's about girls, most of whom are statistically never going to be professional standard or anywhere close, taking part in sport safely and fairly throughout school, in clubs and later on as hobbies too once they leave school?

That it's about the fun of sport, learning teamwork, gaining fitness, developing strength, celebrating wins at a 'normal person' level rather than a 'great standard'?

All of this is being put at risk of being made unfair and in some cases inaccessible e.g. girls who cannot share changing rooms with male bodied people due to religion or trauma, girls who are pulled from clubs as their parents are concerned about injuries due to the risks of injury during play being increased if a male bodied person is also playing etc etc

"Whatever" isn't ever a constructive contribution to an important discussion tbh.

youvegottenminuteslynn · 18/03/2022 16:36

@youvegottenminuteslynn

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

It's not just about the elite levels though. Do you not understand that it's about girls and women being able to get on with enjoying stuff safely and fairly?

That it's about girls, most of whom are statistically never going to be professional standard or anywhere close, taking part in sport safely and fairly throughout school, in clubs and later on as hobbies too once they leave school?

That it's about the fun of sport, learning teamwork, gaining fitness, developing strength, celebrating wins at a 'normal person' level rather than a 'great standard'?

All of this is being put at risk of being made unfair and in some cases inaccessible e.g. girls who cannot share changing rooms with male bodied people due to religion or trauma, girls who are pulled from clubs as their parents are concerned about injuries due to the risks of injury during play being increased if a male bodied person is also playing etc etc

"Whatever" isn't ever a constructive contribution to an important discussion tbh.

This was in response to @Ides obviously
MoonOnASpoon · 18/03/2022 17:37

The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

I agree with PPs that's not just about that level – but for the sake of argument, if you're saying it's fine because it's tiny numbers.

  • If tiny numbers get away with it and get medals and sports careers out of it, then there will soon be many more.
  • and if it's the numbers that matter, well, one male like LT competing in a female category disadvantages many others, by making it impossible for opponents to win, and by displacing females on their own teams. So if it's fine for women to suffer because it's only tiny numbers, I suggest it would be more fine to say no to the TW, as there's typically only one of them in each case, so that several women can have their feelings respected and fairness needs met instead. Then it's a smaller number of people being disadvantaged, so that makes it better, right?
Linguini · 18/03/2022 18:14

The problem with the "tiny numbers" argument is that it only takes one male person in one sport to wreck world records for ALL women.

We've seen in in cycling. We're seeing it in swimming. One man is all it takes.

I don't care that TW are a small percentage of men. Once one of them competes with women, women can't compete.

Helleofabore · 18/03/2022 18:29

@Ides

I think that this issue is one of those that shows that we've come to the 'end of feminism', in a crucial sense. The whole thrust of feminism, for over a century, has been that women could do what men do. That's been entirely correct, in my view: the strength of humans, relative to other species, is all about humans' mental capacities. Never about their physical capacities. Relative to chimps, horses or even tigers, the difference between men and women is tiny. Humans' strength is in their brains. And there's sod all difference between men and women in that respect - if any at all.

The GC argument is anti-feminist. It wants to assert that women are inherently inferior to men in ways that are still in some way important. It also wants to assert that women are, in various ways, nicer than men, in some crucial respects. This is why GC advocates are fine with any kind of natal woman in a woman's bathroom - because women are unfailingly lovely and fluffy - whereas any self-identifying woman, no matter how small and fragile she is - if she has a penis and testicles, or even once had a penis and testicles, is, ipso facto, a menace to all the women around her.

Sport is sport. Whatever. A tiny percentage of women will ever be involved in it to any great standard. The tiniest of tiniest percentages of transwomen will ever be involved in it at that level ... the fingers of one hand, maybe.

Gah ... of all the things we women have to face, the issue of transwomen is so, so tiny. I really do think we should move on from it. It makes us look silly, tiny and weak that we're so scared of people who were born equipped with penises and testicles. We are better than this ridiculous argument.

You have repeated these claims across several threads.

Your arguments always lack any substance at all and rely on the 'scale' argument of 'the numbers are so tiny'.

It makes us look silly, tiny and weak that we're so scared of people who were born equipped with penises and testicles. We are better than this ridiculous argument.

And this repeated argument completely lacks any credibility at all. The research is out there and you just choose to ignore it. That is an issue with you. Not other's who put in the work to actually gain a better understanding.

And fuck off with the 'whatever. Sport.'

Right at the moment there is just one transitioned male swimming for PennU. The ripple effect that this one male has had is large and is right now, by the hour in fact, growing. This one male yesterday beat a Women's silver medal olympian from the Tokyo Olympics. This one male has been reported to exposing their penis in the changing rooms. The number of females this one male has had a direct effect on at this time is probably going to be in the hundreds not the tens.

At least you have dropped the ridiculous terms you were using for 'penises and testicles'. Another way you were ridiculing women who quite simply don't and will never agree with you on this topic.

WalrusSubmarine · 18/03/2022 21:08

I thought the whole thrust of feminism for the last 100 years was that when women do whatever men do they should get equal treatment, opportunities and compensation - not that that we had to settle for the crumbs we were previously permitted and not that we had to pretend to be the same.

WalrusSubmarine · 18/03/2022 21:15

We have categories everywhere in life for all sorts of reasons. Sex is so important it’s a protected characteristic all on its own.

Boundaries, restrictions, exclusions, groupings, categories etc are a normal part of healthy adult life. There is always going to be someone a day off the age limit, or a millimetre off the height restriction, or who joined scheme a day before or after some cut off, or who is living in a house outside of the boundary etc etc etc. There have been some heartbreaking stories over the years from people who have lost out by a whisper - but also heartwarming stories from people who have benefitted. That’s life!!! There is no way on earth to keep everybody happy in every situation and bend all the rules to fix feelings. Especially around something as significant as your birth sex.

What makes us look stupid is ignoring science, sports statistics, health records, employment data etc and ploughing on with this idea that sex suddenly doesn’t matter.

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