JK Rowling article

[DrDreReturns]

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

'...Other times, the cis lesbian gets over her genital hangups and realizes that she can cope just fine

— Dr. Rachel McKinnon (@rachelvmckinnon) January 20, 2016'

A "trans exclusionary event" might include any GC march/protest for example, they're all very poorly attended! If there is such widespread support for the movement, then there's no reason for public engagement to be so frail.

'Frail'

'AN ANGRY crowd besieged a Woman’s Place UK (WPUK) meeting in Brighton on Monday night, crowding and shouting: “Shame on you” at individuals entering and banging on the windows throughout in an attempt to drown out the speakers.

Protesters chanted that “WPUK is a hate group,” repeating claims by some trans activists that the feminist organisation is hostile to trans people’s rights, an assertion rejected by speakers at the event.

One woman was doused in water as she entered while a young PhD student was reduced to tears and missed most of the subsequent meeting because the “terrifying” experience brought on a panic attack.'

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/wpuk-fringe-report

morningstaronline.co.uk/article/b/smoke-bomb-protest-outside-expelme-rally-near-grenfell-tower-sparks-sensitivity-row

'POLICE were called to escort attendees safely from the Labour Women’s Declaration’s #ExpelMe rally following confrontations with protesters outside the event last night.'

www.spectator.co.uk/article/why-are-women-who-discuss-gender-getting-bomb-threats-

'Some women organised a meeting to talk about their legal rights. Someone threatened to blow up that meeting with a bomb'

A "trans exclusionary event" might include any GC march/protest for example, they're all very poorly attended! If there is such widespread support for the movement, then there's no reason for public engagement to be so frail.

And yet all the Woman's Place UK meetings I've attended have had hundreds of people present - the conference in 2020 had nearly 1,000 people attend. The sports meeting packed out a very large venue. I'm just seeing massive engagement from women who care about this subject.

I also note that the WPUK meetings draw protests when the venue is made public (which it usually isn't). Usually only half a dozen or so activists as a rule - though what they lack in numbers they usually make up for in aggressive misogynistic chanting.

There are plenty more instances, those are three plucked at random. Women are being attacked, threatened, harassed, doxed and terrorised for discussing our rights.

I would hazard a tiny guess that some women are too afraid to attend these meetings, and I know that there are people who are pleased that women are too scared to attend.

If this is you, take a minute to wonder if you really think its okay to terrorise, threaten or attack women.

This is 'self justification' fallacy and it is a sign that you need to ask yourself some questions.

@DomesticatedZombie

'...Other times, the cis lesbian gets over her genital hangups and realizes that she can cope just fine

— Dr. Rachel McKinnon (@rachelvmckinnon) January 20, 2016'

She is now Veronica ivy.

What is the word for females who are exclusively same-sex attracted to females? Can they have their own dating sites or not?

Here's the thing. one can:

- hold bigoted opinions about trans women and treat them like men
- not be transphobic

But one can't be both.

So lesbians must have sex with transwomen, or they're not treating them as women. How many times must a lesbian perform a sexual act with each male transitioner she meets, before she has met the minimum standard required and can say she's treated the male transitioner as a woman?

Or will one night of lying-back-and-thinking-of-England/Wales/Scotland/Ireland with one male transitioner stand for all, like a sexual synecdoche?

@DomesticatedZombie

I think you will 'learn to cope', Artichoke, wasn't that the phrase?

It's very 'lay back and think of England' isn't it?

And the Victorian mothers telling their daughters before their wedding nights about how their husband would want to do something not very nice to them, but they must be a good girl and not fuss and get through it as best they can.

No Thank You.

@nepeta

Elaine Fuchs, could you elaborate on what 'men' are in this context?

Assuming that this is a genuine question and not just a reversed "what is a woman?" so popular on twitter:

A man is an adult male person. "male" in this case referring to gender identity.

"men" is a social category. There is no quintessential property which makes a man a man. Gender stereotypes and stigmas are wrong and harmful. There are shared behaviors which correlate amongst men (and the same for women as well), but no man is any less of a man for not doing any of these (that's not to say that gender nonconforming men will not have trouble fitting into our very gendered society, with its roles and expectations, but such is life in 2022).

I would give some specific examples of maleness, however every time I've done that in the past here people have misinterpreted it as me saying it's a prescription for how to be a man.

If you are genuinely interested in talking about this I'm happy to do some back and forth (at a later date), I'm sure what I've written here can be refined (at least for clarity and completeness).

Maybe there's a badge. Like the ones they used to give women who'd birthed 5 children for the fatherland.

The 'Ive done my duty' (and am now allowed to have sex for enjoyment)

Where was that quote about lesbians selfishly prioritising their own orgasms instead of meeting the sexual needs of transwomen?

No mention anywhere, ever though, not one quote at all, that ever looks at how the TW plans to meet the need of the female person. Or even that the female is a sentient person, or that this is any kind of a reciprocal thing as opposed to service provider and recipient.

No. Male means sex. Female means sex. Biological sex which is a fixed and unchanging fact.

Female and male are not gender identities.

If men refers to a "social category", how do we know who men and women are in societies very different to our own? When flying across oceans, is there a point at which a man becomes a woman as they enter the airspace of certain countries?

@Artichokeleaves

Ah.

So if I perceive a biological male as a biological male and refuse to have sex with them on the grounds that I exclusively am sexually attracted to biological females, I'm doing something wrong?

Is there some brainwashing course I can go on to train myself into tolerating this unwanted sex with the biological sex I don't find attractive, don't want to have sex with but apparently have to force myself into learning to like or go to hell or something?

And how is this not conversion therapy? You know, actual conversion therapy?

This is trying to train gay women to be straight for the benefit of males, while totally dehumanising those women. You do realise that? It does not matter how often you repeat 'but I'm not saying have sex with people you're not attracted to and don't want to' - this is in fact exactly what you're telling me as a lesbian.

The ability to say no to someone on the basis of not being attracted to any member of their sex cannot exist alongside expecting a homosexual woman to provide sex to male people on the basis of their gender identity.

It's like single sex spaces for females cannot exist at the same time as permitting male people to enter all spaces at will based on their choice and preference.

Just pretending this conflict does not exist does not achieve anything. And it's very very noticable that the conflict is being avoided instead of faced up to because avoiding it favours male people and meets their choices and preferences and needs at the expense and silencing and vanishing of female ones. The inequality and sexism is stark.

Rather. If a poster cannot see that stating that a lesbian not having sex with a transitioned male who has self-identified as a lesbian because they are 'male' is transphobic, is in turn homophobic they are not going to understand your point.

That a poster is flinging around that lesbians are 'transphobic' and that lesbians should just accept it is surprising. So, a poster can say 'lesbians are transphobic' with all the negative connotations and that poster cannot understand how coercive that is.

That someone holding 'transphobic' over the heads of some lesbians is very coercive in nature.

That teenaged girls who are lesbians are being 'educated' using exactly this method to feel they have not option but to accept 'trans dick'.

Really? This is where this thread is at now?

Artichoke

Oh, on that subject, I note Artichoke hasn't had sex with me yet. Does this mean she's treating me as a man? Or am I of a mysterious class of people, whom she's only obliged to treat with ordinary politeness without resorting to extraordinary measures?

Did you know that the transwoman Christine Burns (MBE) once said:

In a bizarre way rapists have a better line in manners. At least they treat their victims, without prejudice, as women.

Maybe we should also mention that a women's group getting together in Grenfell was also targeted by activists with smoke bombs amongst other things.

Smoke bombs, in Grenfell, after the Towers fire, used against a political women's group getting together to discuss policy and the ways forward.

We also have had the FILIA conference well covered with transitioned males shouting over the top of a roll call of murdered women's names being called out. And holding up signs saying things like suck trans dick and writing it out in chalk where women are walking. Women. Some of who are victims of sex crimes such as rape and assault and css.

And here we have 'Elaine' commenting on how 'frail' women's groups attendances are?

FFS There is some ignorance coming out on this thread!

Here are some questions for those who feel it's transphobic for a woman not to give male transitioners access to her body. What lengths would be reasonable to go to, to eliminate her transphobia?

Questions

10a) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through exploration of gender theory and re-framing of her perceptions of what it means to be a man or woman, would this be an appropriate response?

10b) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through damaging her opportunities to access employment, housing, and social support networks as a response to non-compliance, would this be an appropriate response?

10c) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through re-education at a dedicated facility, would this be an appropriate response?

10d) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through aversion therapy — inducing, for example, intense self-loathing and worthlessness in response to undesirable feelings– would this be an appropriate response?

10e) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was through electroshock therapy, would this be an appropriate response?

10f) if the only way to eradicate genital preference in a woman was throughinternment followed by six months of brothel work followed by murder, would this be an appropriate response?

10g) if not, why not?

From: apacificisland.wordpress.com/2017/02/14/unanswered-unanswerable-alt-title-agenda/

Elaine I might have missed it but what did you mean that people should be able to self identify as disabled and you disagree with governments and organisation 'gatekeeping' benefits and support for disabled people? I gave my example and how this would impact genuine disabled people but all you said was that was not what you meant.

A paralel to example womens sports which is for the benefit of female people (sex not gender) and that no male should be able to identify their way into, wouldn't you agree?

Elaine Fuchs:

So the definition of 'man' in your view is purely social? And there is, actually, then no word for a person who belongs to the sex which typically (but not always) produces sperm or at least is on the path towards that? And health advice on, say, prostate cancer should not be directed at men but at 'prostate-havers'? Condom advertising should be directed at 'ejaculators' and not men?

That would be inclusive language as there are people who have prostate and penises but do not have male identity.

Okay. What would change if we go along with that definition? How would you explain, to give one example, the initial subjugation of people who have ovaries and so on by people who have prostates? Or the treatment of 'vulva people' in Afghanistan?

Let's say we somehow manage not to just get rid of all names for the female sex but actually all names for biological sex altogether. Why would we then even need such terms as 'women' and 'men?' After all, they were created to either refer to biologically female and male adult people or the way societies required them to behave and the characteristics societies required them to have.

I don't quite see how that world would work. It would not dismantle what some call 'patriarchy', and it would leave us few weapons to fight against the subjugation of people who do belong to the sex which typically (but not always) produces ova, because we couldn't talk about it properly. Indeed, I think it would make 'patriarchy' stronger, because once 'women' lacks material basis, something else will be used in the place of that basis, and that will be sexist stereotypes.

Then I have questions about the concept of gender identity. I don't possess an abstract gender identity in that I don't feel particularly female most of the time and never when I am alone. I am a human being and an individual but I also have a biologically female body, and that body is the reason why I have been discriminated against and sexually assaulted. I need to have a name for myself, and your definition does erase my particular gender identity, because it erases so many of my actual life experiences.

My feminism has always been aimed toward erasing the gendered boxes. What you suggest seems to strengthen their borders but at the same time make it harder to improve the lot of people belonging to the sex which typically (but not always) produces ova. And the people who make the lot of that group worse do not use your definitions are are very unlikely to ever begin to use them.

@MrsBrodie

I can't believe OP is so openly homophobic. How liberal of you.

I don't think that it is OP that is being homophobic.

@Beowulfa

If men refers to a "social category", how do we know who men and women are in societies very different to our own? When flying across oceans, is there a point at which a man becomes a woman as they enter the airspace of certain countries?

Haha, an interesting question. Since there's such a strong correlation between sexed characteristics and gender identity (importantly not universal), I think it would be unambiguous in most cases.

I have heard of cultures which do have genders beyond the strict binary we have in the west, and perhaps people belonging to those do run into these kind of issues. I am not a member of those cultures, so wouldn't want to opine on their experiences myself however.

A quick look at legal recognition for non-binary identities across the globe doesn't paint a happy picture for these people though en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_recognition_of_non-binary_gender

I have heard of cultures which do have genders beyond the strict binary we have in the west, and perhaps people belonging to those do run into these kind of issues.

I can probably go and find a recent statement from the Somoan president about the fact that the much used example of their 'third' gender is still very much 'male'. Yet this 'third gender' has been used by activists frequently to normalise their assertions.

Elaine Fuchs:
Haha, an interesting question. Since there's such a strong correlation between sexed characteristics and gender identity (importantly not universal), I think it would be unambiguous in most cases.

But this means that people would be using apparent biological sex to categorise people. If more people were trans, then such categorisation would not be feasible, and the fact remains that others would classify someone on the basis of what they deem their sex to be.

There are three axes of oppression which affect the largest numbers of people: that based on sex, that based on race, and that based on class (or caste). The types of oppression can intersect and other types also exist and intersect, but it cannot be an advance in social justice to erase our ability to even address sex-based oppression by erasing all names for the female sex without offering any alternatives in their place.

The losses this new approach would create would be tremendous, given that sex-based oppression is still the type which affects the largest numbers of people.

@Helleofabore

I have heard of cultures which do have genders beyond the strict binary we have in the west, and perhaps people belonging to those do run into these kind of issues.

I can probably go and find a recent statement from the Somoan president about the fact that the much used example of their 'third' gender is still very much 'male'. Yet this 'third gender' has been used by activists frequently to normalise their assertions.

I am not an expert in this area, but I have read that most so-called third sexes are to incorporate gay men into the societies when the societies themselves are hierarchically arranged on the basis of sex.