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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

JK Rowling article

496 replies

DrDreReturns · 16/03/2022 08:56

Interesting read. I know it's from a Conservative site but it seems only the right are gender critical at the moment.

www.conservativehome.com/highlights/2022/03/profile-j-k-rowling-striving-to-stop-starmer-nailing-his-colours-to-the-fence-on-trans.html

OP posts:
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18
Beowulfa · 17/03/2022 11:50

This one is a thought experiment, so it's obviously not real (yet) but the argument is still valid in principle: imagine the transplant of a female reproductive system into a man. His gender wouldn't change just because of this, in fact in this hypothetical scenario he may even retain the ability to make sperm.

This would be a man dying of sepsis.

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 11:51

Everyone has a sex, gender is a social construct that insists on each sex being placed in restrictive boxes. I don't have a gender, I do not believe in restricting what people do or wear on the basis of restrictive gender stereotypes applied to them due to the sex they were born.

You either don't understand feminism or have changed the meaning of feminism in your head to apply to your own version, much like gender ideology is determined to change words to make them absolutely meaningless.

As for the ridiculous imagine scenario, seriously? That's the best you can come up with?

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:13

@NecessaryScene

Some people are born infertile: they make no gametes, however still have a gender! So although it's correlated with gametes, it's not caused by them!

You mean "sex" all the way through this?

And the causation is the other way around - the gametes are caused by the sex. Therefore if you're producing sperm, you must be male.

There are two forms of an organism, one produces the small motile gametes, the other the large immobile ones, and those are designated the male and female forms respectively.

This one is a thought experiment, so it's obviously not real (yet) but the argument is still valid in principle: imagine the transplant of a female reproductive system into a man. His gender wouldn't change just because of this, in fact in this hypothetical scenario he may even retain the ability to make sperm.

I assume you mean "sex" here too? Reproductively he would be both male and female.

Although at that technological point you'd have to draw the distinction between natal sex and current reproductive sex.

What we normally care about is phenotype, not reproductive ability. It's the actual physical and behavioural characteristics than normally matter, not the gametes that were used to identify the two phenotypes as male and female.

An inserted uterus (from some poor woman) isn't going to make a man eligible for women's prison or women's sport, any more than any other body parts in his pocket.

A man with surgically removed male bits or inserted female bits is still a modified male type of human.

We don't have the ability to turn a man into a woman any more than we can turn a cat into a dog.

No, I specifically mean gender in all this, i.e. the way someone interacts with our gendered society.

I agree that an inserted uterus wouldn't qualify someone for female spaces, that's my point.

"It's the actual physical and behavioural characteristics"

I definitely agree with the behavioural characteristics! That's what gender is, it's how one interacts with a gendered society.

As for physical characteristics, many trans people will change these too, to better match how they want to be.

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:16

@VestofAbsurdity

Everyone has a sex, gender is a social construct that insists on each sex being placed in restrictive boxes. I don't have a gender, I do not believe in restricting what people do or wear on the basis of restrictive gender stereotypes applied to them due to the sex they were born.

You either don't understand feminism or have changed the meaning of feminism in your head to apply to your own version, much like gender ideology is determined to change words to make them absolutely meaningless.

As for the ridiculous imagine scenario, seriously? That's the best you can come up with?

I reject the notion that gender has to be restrictive. It certainly can be opressive, but it can also be celebrated. I'm all for removing all gender stereotypes and stigmas from society.

Feminism to me is about liberating people from the grip of the patriarchy.

The hypothetical scenario wasn't the only example I gave to demonstrate why gametes aren't the source of gender. Nonetheless, that doesn't impinge on the thought experiment's usefulness.

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:18

I agree that an inserted uterus wouldn't qualify someone for female spaces, that's my point.

Okay.

As for physical characteristics, many trans people will change these too, to better match how they want to be.

And, in your opinion, does this qualify them for female spaces?

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:20

@Artichokeleaves

I'm a homosexual female. I don't go to Pride or any groups any more because they're openly anti homosexual females and I encounter a lot of homophobia that lesbians are people of either sex who may or may not have exclusive sexual preferences for one/both/multiple sexes. Which is obvious nonsense because the word 'lesbian' means homosexual (sex, biological) female.

Otherwise what's the point of having the word at all.

Anyone insisting that a woman should be called names for exerting her right to have a sexuality that excludes male people from her body, has a real problem with women, women's rights and homosexuality.

And as for the whole 'lesbians should learn to cope with sex with male bodied people for political reasons' ala Rachel Mckinnon who came out with that gem?? Sex is a social duty for females to provide for males without expectation of enjoyment or reciprocation is it?

Call me what ever names you feel like. I've got no problem working out what I think of people who treat women and homosexual women in this way. And I wouldn't want to be spending any time around them.

Which makes it very difficult to know exactly how many homosexuals are now no longer anywhere to be seen at Pride and groups because they've been colonised and taken over by a particular political position that is exclusionary and aggressively hostile/intolerant of them. Rather like how many females are now without any resources so that male people can have absolute freedom in selecting from all the resources.

Morally this isn't too shiny is it? Not kind. Not inclusive.

If you're telling someone that you know better than them if they're gay or not, then yeah, that's homophobic. (likewise, you are free to label yourself as whatever you want)

If the only reason you don't have sex with someone is because they're trans, then yeah, that's transphobic. (and just to preempt some clown: obviously I'm not saying anyone has to have sex with anyone they don't want to, that's abominable)

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:20

I'm all for removing all gender stereotypes and stigmas from society.

As am I, but Gender Ideology enforces those stereotypes.

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:22

@VestofAbsurdity

I agree that an inserted uterus wouldn't qualify someone for female spaces, that's my point.

Okay.

As for physical characteristics, many trans people will change these too, to better match how they want to be.

And, in your opinion, does this qualify them for female spaces?

No, I would never claim someone is less of a woman because of any physical characteristic, that's misogyny "you're not a real woman because your feet are too big", awful.
Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 12:24

If the only reason you don't have sex with someone is because they're trans, then yeah, that's transphobic.

As a homosexual female I won't have sex with any male person. Regardless of how they identify me.

Do crack on with the name calling, policing of my body, and who gets to use it.

Hmm
ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:28

@Artichokeleaves

If the only reason you don't have sex with someone is because they're trans, then yeah, that's transphobic.

As a homosexual female I won't have sex with any male person. Regardless of how they identify me.

Do crack on with the name calling, policing of my body, and who gets to use it.

Hmm

Nobody "gets" your body, please don't suggest I might say such disgusting things.
VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:28

If you're telling someone that you know better than them if they're gay or not, then yeah, that's homophobic. (likewise, you are free to label yourself as whatever you want)

Oh ffs, homosexuality is same sex attraction not same gender attraction and to say that it is is blatant homophobia. This is one of the issues with Gender Ideology taking legally defined and accepted meanings and subverting them until they are meaningless, if you are not homosexual you cannot just label yourself as homosexual, it has a meaning and is protected in law under that meaning. Disability has a meaning and is protected in law under that meaning can I label myself as disabled and receive all the protections of that protected characteristic if I am not?

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:30

@VestofAbsurdity

I'm all for removing all gender stereotypes and stigmas from society.

As am I, but Gender Ideology enforces those stereotypes.

I would really encourage you to have an open minded conversation with a trans person about this, I think this is a big misrepresentation of what most fighting for trans liberation believe.

If you DM me I could try and put you in touch with a trans person willing to talk this over.

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 12:31

That's exactly what you are saying when you call me names for daring to have a sexuality that excludes all males regardless of their identity.

And you support a political position on this thread which includes telling homosexual females to 'learn to cope' with unwanted sex with males as some kind of social duty, while implying that they are a minority rightfully excluded from pride and are homophobic.

Frankly you are saying things I find disgustingly offensive as a Lesbian. Really quite stunningly offensive and homophobic.

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:33

No, I would never claim someone is less of a woman because of any physical characteristic, that's misogyny "you're not a real woman because your feet are too big", awful.

You didn't answer my question, I have no idea what you are riffing on here, the question was:

If trans people change their outward physical characteristics does that entitle them to enter female only spaces, in your view?

It's a simple yes or no answer, you've said your thought experiment regarding internal characteristics wouldn't entitle them to so it can't be difficult for you to apply the same level of thought to the question I asked.

Helleofabore · 17/03/2022 12:33

I actually want to pick up some confusion here too. Sex isn’t about what gametes are produced. Sex is about having a body formed around the ability to produce either small or large gametes regardless of whether they are produced, have been or will be produced.

This is another cognitive distortion.

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 12:33

You have been asked before on these threads not to ask people to DM you. Women have been arrested for their views on these matters and doxxing is a very real and serious concern.

You are also very much misled if you believe no one here has ever spoken to a trans person and their issue with the attack on female rights is lack of experience. And if they just knew a trans person they'd hand over their rights joyfully.

This is a fully informed No.

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:34

@VestofAbsurdity

If you're telling someone that you know better than them if they're gay or not, then yeah, that's homophobic. (likewise, you are free to label yourself as whatever you want)

Oh ffs, homosexuality is same sex attraction not same gender attraction and to say that it is is blatant homophobia. This is one of the issues with Gender Ideology taking legally defined and accepted meanings and subverting them until they are meaningless, if you are not homosexual you cannot just label yourself as homosexual, it has a meaning and is protected in law under that meaning. Disability has a meaning and is protected in law under that meaning can I label myself as disabled and receive all the protections of that protected characteristic if I am not?

To you it might be attraction to particular masculine or feminine sexed characteristics, and that's totally fine! What I'm saying is that you don't get to declare that other homosexual people are not because they are attracted to people of the same gender presentation or other qualities.

The same with disability, I fully support self-id for disabilities, I can't imagine how dreadful it would have to be to have government or other organizations gatekeep disability benefits/accommodations from those who need them.

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:37

@Artichokeleaves

That's exactly what you are saying when you call me names for daring to have a sexuality that excludes all males regardless of their identity.

And you support a political position on this thread which includes telling homosexual females to 'learn to cope' with unwanted sex with males as some kind of social duty, while implying that they are a minority rightfully excluded from pride and are homophobic.

Frankly you are saying things I find disgustingly offensive as a Lesbian. Really quite stunningly offensive and homophobic.

I don't know where I've supported such an awful position. Telling someone to "learn to cope" with unwanted sex is such a horrible thing to say. I fully disavow anyone saying such things.
VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:37

I would really encourage you to have an open minded conversation with a trans person about this, I think this is a big misrepresentation of what most fighting for trans liberation believe.

I have had plenty of open minded conversations with a trans person thanks, I know it's shocking for you to understand that people on here do actually know trans people and do actually talk to them.

If you DM me I could try and put you in touch with a trans person willing to talk this over.

Not necessary, as I said.

I would like to hear you tell me what trans liberation believes though.

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:40

I fully support self-id for disabilities

You what?

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:41

@Artichokeleaves

You have been asked before on these threads not to ask people to DM you. Women have been arrested for their views on these matters and doxxing is a very real and serious concern.

You are also very much misled if you believe no one here has ever spoken to a trans person and their issue with the attack on female rights is lack of experience. And if they just knew a trans person they'd hand over their rights joyfully.

This is a fully informed No.

Sorry, I must have missed that request. Can you point me to where someone said that? I don't think there's anything wrong with offering to talk over DMs.

(One person asked me not to DM them when I offered, and I didn't DM them).

I offered, because some of the views espoused on this thread are clearly formed from a very biased viewpoint, and seeing the perspective of the minority in question might help people.

My DMs are open to anyone who genuinely wants to see the other side.

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:43

@VestofAbsurdity

No, I would never claim someone is less of a woman because of any physical characteristic, that's misogyny "you're not a real woman because your feet are too big", awful.

You didn't answer my question, I have no idea what you are riffing on here, the question was:

If trans people change their outward physical characteristics does that entitle them to enter female only spaces, in your view?

It's a simple yes or no answer, you've said your thought experiment regarding internal characteristics wouldn't entitle them to so it can't be difficult for you to apply the same level of thought to the question I asked.

I did answer it with a "No"

Like I said, I wouldn't deny someone access to a women's space because of their looks/height/breast size/etc... None of these things make them any more or less of a woman.

VestofAbsurdity · 17/03/2022 12:47

I did answer it with a "No"

Like I said, I wouldn't deny someone access to a women's space because of their looks/height/breast size/etc... None of these things make them any more or less of a woman.

Right so transwomen use the spaces and services set aside for their sex which is male. Excellent, we agree on something.

Artichokeleaves · 17/03/2022 12:47

some of the views espoused on this thread are clearly formed from a very biased viewpoint, and seeing the perspective

I'm finding your views quite fantastically biased. Is seeing my perspective helping you in any way to realise why females are so very, very angry about the appalling way they are being treated?

Not least the never ending supercillious lecturing about how to female and lesbian better?

ElaineFuchs · 17/03/2022 12:47

@VestofAbsurdity

I would really encourage you to have an open minded conversation with a trans person about this, I think this is a big misrepresentation of what most fighting for trans liberation believe.

I have had plenty of open minded conversations with a trans person thanks, I know it's shocking for you to understand that people on here do actually know trans people and do actually talk to them.

If you DM me I could try and put you in touch with a trans person willing to talk this over.

Not necessary, as I said.

I would like to hear you tell me what trans liberation believes though.

I find it hard to believe that many trans people would insist on enforcing strict gender roles like you suggest with "As am I, but Gender Ideology enforces those stereotypes.".
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